- [Mike DeSorda] Mike, you might want to expand the full page. - [Mike Mooney] Yeah. Sorry about that. I wasn't sure if you were able to see that or not. So that should work. Does that work? Does that look good? - [Mike DeSorda] Yes. - [Mike Mooney] Okay. Sorry. It's hard to see the zoom controls and the PowerPoint slide at the same time. So everyone that can hear me. My name is Mike Mooney. We're going to wait a couple more minutes for people to trickle in. So hold on momentarily. We will get started. All right. Good morning. Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for joining us. My name is Mike Mooney. I'm the digital marketing manager at TPGi, and we're really excited about this webinar on Jaws Inspect titled "Undertaking JAWS screen reader, compatibility testing in real life" with Al Puzzuoli and Mike DeSorda. I have a few housekeeping items I want to take care of before we get started. First off, this session is being recorded and we will email everyone the recording after the event. Secondly, we do have a lot of captions available, feel free to use them as needed. And lastly, we will have time for live Q and A. Please use the Q and A box available, and we will answer as many questions as we can. And for anyone that hasn't taken advantage of the Jaws Inspect trial, please do so. It's available on TPGi and I'll share a link after this event as well for anyone that wants to take advantage of that. Without further ado, I'll pass the mic to Mike DeSorda and he will introduce himself. - [Mike DeSorda] Yeah. Thank you, Mike. There's a couple of Mikes here, so it might be a little confusing, but I appreciate the handoff. Welcome everybody. And thank you, Mike. So, thanks everybody for attending today's Jaws Inspect webinar. I want to start out today by introducing myself and my webinar partner Al. We both work at TPGi. We both work on the customer success team at TPGi. So I'll introduce myself first, and I'm going to swing it over to Al, and Al can introduce himself. So as I mentioned, I work on the customer success team. I am the customer success manager at TPGi. I've been with TGI for a couple of years now. And one of my roles, one of my many hats I wear is to provide demos and onboarding for our Jaws and Inspect product, which we will be going through today. And I just want to first, before I go any further though, give Al a chance to introduce himself and then he'll throw it back my way and we'll get going. Al? Al, we don't hear you. - [Al Puzzuoli] Okay. Yeah. Thanks Mike and Mike, I guess I am the only non-Mike in this presentation today. My name is Al Puzzuoli, I have been with TPGi for going on five years now. Wow. Time flies. Prior to that, I worked at Michigan State University, where I ran the IT department, for the disability office there. And prior to that did some work for human ware. So I am a Jaws user myself, and I've worn many hats throughout my life. I've been the student, I've been the end-user, I've been the vendor. I've been the service provider and I've been the accessibility tester. So you know, which chair at the table do you want me to sit at today? Basically. So that is essentially my background. And did you have any more housekeeping items Mike? Or should we just jump right in? - [Mike Mooney] Nope. I'm good on my end, if you want to kick it off, go ahead. - [Mike DeSorda] Yeah, let me, set the table just a little bit more and then I'll let you get going. So I want to make sure everybody understands today what our objective is, our audience out there. So our hope is that we're going to be able to model for you what you might think of as a real world relationship between a Jaws user, which is going to be Al's role, which has he mentioned, he's a real jobs user and an accessibility tester, which is going to be my role. So I'm going to take on that role today, and we're going to show that interaction between a Jaws user and a Jaws Inspect user. So you can see the link between both products and why both products are valuable. For those that may not be familiar with Jaws Inspect. And just in case, I just want to provide you some additional information. Jaws Inspect, it provides texts output of the Jaws screen reader, which I will be going through the screen reader audio that enables Jaws, non Jaws users to efficiently and effectively test for Jaws speech output. So in short, if you have anything at all to do with making the lives of your Jaws users easier and less frustrated with poorly accessible web pages then Jaws Inspect and this webinar is for you. I like to ask that since we are going to have a flow going between Al and myself, that we allow us to walk through today's webinar on that and maybe hold off questions to the end and we'd be happy to address them then. So with that, we'll get started and we're going to start by having Al give you a glimpse of his world on a test webpage and, Al, take it away. - [Al Puzzuoli] All right. First I'm going to share my screen in a second here. Okay. I should be sharing. - [Mike DeSorda] You are. - [Al Puzzuoli] Okay. So, what I'm going to do first here is give you an example of how I would interact with a page that I've never seen before. And so I'm going to go to our test page and read it with Jaws at the rate that I normally read. And what you want to understand about this is that someone who's used Jaws for a lot of years after you've used it for a long time, you start to, as you use it you start to raise your rate and the speed I'm listening at is not the speed at which a Jaws user would begin listening, or a developer began listening. So I'm going to do a read through one time at that speed. And then for the rest of the presentation, I will set my speech to a more sane rate that everybody else can follow along with. So that said, this is the maximized lists, and this is the page that we're working with. It's called Mater Money Financial, it's just a sample, a little webpage with some issues that we can discuss. So I'm going to just start reading this. - Okay. So that's essentially the webpage. Let me change my speech here. We're going to switch to a different voice, that's at a slower rate. - [Al Puzzuoli] And this should be a little more intelligible for people. - [JAWS Reader] Mater Money Financial. - [Al Puzzuoli] Okay. So, I've read through the entire page and that is something that I may or may not typically do when experiencing a page for the first time. Oftentimes though, instead of reading the page, I might just jump right in and start trying to navigate the page. And the easiest and most straightforward way to start navigating a page is oftentimes by just pressing the tab key. So I'm going to start tabbing through this page and we'll see what we get. - [JAWS Reader] Mater Money Financial. Heading level two, link Mater Money Financial services. main office call in 2 1 2 - 5 5 5 - 1 2 1 2 link. - [Al Puzzuoli] Okay. It looks pretty good so far Let's tab again. - [JAWS Reader] Edit. - [Al Puzzuoli] Okay. Here, I've got an edit field. I've no idea what it's for. I'm going to tab one more time. - [JAWS Reader] Edit. - [Al Puzzuoli] Edit again. - [JAWS Reader] Edit. - [Al Puzzuoli] And edit again. As a Jaws user, I'm completely flummoxed at this point. If I'm only tabbing, when you tab, you get no context. So you have to really rely on the names of elements to describe what they will do. So, you know, an unlabeled edit or let's see what the next thing is. - [JAWS Reader] Contact. Send mail link - [Al Puzzuoli] Okay, contact, send mail link. - [JAWS Reader] Contact. Send mail link - [Al Puzzuoli] Again. There's no context. And what I'm seeing is contact, send mail link, contact, send mail link, but I have no idea who I'm contacting if I actually select any of these links. - [JAWS Reader] Contact. Send mail link. - [Al Puzzuoli] So we've got some links with no context. The descriptions are very vague. - [JAWS Reader] Phone number, 2 1 2 - 5 5 5 - 1 2 1 2 link - [Al Puzzuoli] And that's the phone number link. And that one is descriptive enough. - [JAWS Reader] Social media slash six Facebook link graphic. - [Al Puzzuoli] And that graphic could be labeled more elegantly, but I gather that it is a Facebook link after it says it's little blurb at the beginning. - [JAWS Reader] Social media slash six Twitter link graphic. - [Al Puzzuoli] There's the Twitter link. And then... - [JAWS Reader] Social media slash six Google Plus link graphics. - [Al Puzzuoli] Google Plus. - [JAWS Reader] 1.0 slash YSB dash logo dash YouTube link graphics. - [Al Puzzuoli] 1.0 YSB logo, link graphic. That one has me completely stumped. I know from looking at this page and then kind of analyzing what's going on if this is the Yahoo small business, but YSB would mean nothing to me. So this link, and I assume this is generated by Yahoo, but it's a very poorly labeled graphic. So those are the links on the page. But let me explore this in some other ways here, let's look at the heading structure of the page. So I'm going to press "H" in Jaws that's the key that lets you navigate by heading. - [JAWS Reader] Mater Money Financial Services heading level two link. - [Al Puzzuoli] Okay, so that heading makes sense. Hit H again. - [JAWS Reader] Mater Money Financial Services heading level one. Blank. Heading level three, serving clients since 1,952. Blank. Link main office colon to about us heading level two. - [Al Puzzuoli] We've got some heading level one, center heading level three, a heading level two. I'ma hit at H again. - [JAWS Reader] Serving clients since 1,952 heading level three. - [Al Puzzuoli] Serving clients since 1952, that's been repeated a couple of times. We've heard that several times now. - [JAWS Reader] Practice areas heading level two. - [Al Puzzuoli] Practice areas is that "H" level two, that's fine. - [JAWS Reader] Why choose us heading level three. - [Al Puzzuoli] Why choose us... - [JAWS Reader] We love our clients heading level two. Finance is life heading level two. Explore your options heading level two. - [Al Puzzuoli] So these headings are for the most part pretty good. - [JAWS Reader] We are your spirit guides heading level two drop USA line heading level two. Feel free to contact us with questions or comments heading level three. Blank. - [Al Puzzuoli] So, the headings for the most part make sense. There's some repetition. There are some oddities in ordering, but for the most part, they do make sense. - [JAWS Reader] Edit. But now with them reading just by lines here, I get these edit boxes again. - [JAWS Reader] Edit. Edit. Link send grader. - [Al Puzzuoli] And I, I'm not sure if he's - [JAWS Reader] Heading level three- Edit. - [Al Puzzuoli] It looks like this is a form where you could send an email, but it's very much not obvious - [JAWS Reader] Mater Money Financial. - [Al Puzzuoli] So that's essentially what this page consists of. And those are the issues I found. So now I will turn it over to Mike, who is the Jaws Inspect user slash accessibility engineer in the simulation. And he can outline how Jaws Inspect reflect those issues. Let me stop sharing. - [Mike DeSorda] Okay. Thank you Al. - [Al Puzzuoli] Yep. - [Mike DeSorda] Appreciate that. So everybody has a little glimpse now into a screen readers world, a Jaws Inspect screen readers world. And now I'm going to take on that role. As I mentioned earlier, let's just say Jaws accessibility tester. And I'm going to share my screen now and we'll kind of see how that works. And unless somebody tells me otherwise, I'm going to assume that people can see the same website that Al was just showing. Okay. So, now we're going to move over to the Jaws Inspect side. Again, just as a quick little refresher, Jaws Inspects purpose is really in a visual, a report format to reflect the same speech output that Al just kind of went through. My job is going to be to go through a couple of these reports and see if I can pick up some of these, you know, a logical or poorly context areas on this web page that Al expressed, you know, sort of a report format. I'm not going to go through all the reports for Jaws Inspect for those of you that want to later, as Mike mentioned, you can certainly download a demo version of Jaws Inspect and you can play around on your own and you kind of get used to it. So, but I will talk to a couple of the other reports, at least as we go along. Anytime you want to invoke Jaws Inspect, once you have it loaded on your system, there's various ways to license it, that we can get into another time. You hold down the control key and you right click your mouse. And I'm going to do that right now. And you can see that a little floating menu pops up with all the reports that you can access. Today I'm going to go through the whole page report, which is effectively what you saw, Al just do the very first time we went through. He went through entire page with the speech very quick. That was very quick and very fast. Excuse me. I'm sorry. That's the sale report. I'm fusing myself. The full page report is a really categorized way of seeing the elements on the webpage and any issues that may be there. The sale report is what I just mentioned. It's going to mimic what Al just did earlier, but in a report format and I'll show the speech view report, and that's going to mimic what Al showed you at the end, where he sort of tab through and arrow through the page where he wanted to go to his own way as kind of a user journey. And this report will show that. And I'll mention a couple of these other reports as we go along. All right. So when I clicked the forward page report like many of our reports, if everything goes right, you're going to notice that Jaws Inspect is going to start crawling through the page that it's on. And this is a page by page report, reporting system. So it doesn't crawl through an entire website. So it's going to be on the active page. So when I click a full page report, we should see it started scrolling through. And if it does, that's a good sign. And there it goes. And the report will just simply show up in another tab on this same browser I'm using. I happen to be using Chrome. And here we go. So as you can see, this is the full page report. The headers on these reports are all going to be similar, if not identical. It's going to provide you the website that you're crawling through, or you're getting your reporting on, today's date and time, what browser you're in and the various versions of Jaws and Jaws Inspect that are in play here. Notice that you can see four HTML elements that this picked up, links, controls, headings, graphics. There's obviously many more. And if your page had more, it would show all the ones that are applicable right now. Today it's just these four. And I'm going to go through some links and some graphic things. And I'm going to, hopefully, map back to some of the concerns that Al expressed, but in a visual way. So for any of these elements, you can click the plus button, excuse me, and you'll just expand it. And here we go with the report. I'm going to start by just explaining quickly the header fields here. And then I'll explain how to kind of think through the rows that you see here. So first of all, select just like any software these days that you see, you can pick and choose any of these rows that you may want later to export into an Excel format. And if you want to get the information outside of Jaws Inspect, and presumably maybe motives some kind of problem management system for tracking. I'm not going to do that today. I will just point out that all that you can see, the buttons down here for export are selected. And all the reports you see today in all reports, you even don't see today, have a feature to be able to export the information out. The Jaws speech output is just exactly what it says it is out is what Al heard. Everything in black here would be the content that was actually on the page, everything here in the bold green is the extra verbiage and Jaws Inspect provides users like Al to put some extra information around us. So they kind of have an understanding of what kind of element or kind of component we're talking about here. "HREF" here is just basically showing you all the clickable text that might be associated with any of these rows of information. The screenshot is kind of obvious. This is a great way that you can see visually what is on the web page. And if you wanted to go back to the web page, you would be able to use this as a reference point to go back and find the element or component you like to see. Code is very important. It could be very important because presumably if you're a tester, using this report format to determine if there are Jaws accessibility issues, you might want to capture the offending code and send it to a developer to remediate. And if they click the code icon, you can see, you can copy and paste this particular HTML snippet, and you would be able to send that over to your developer. And then they would hopefully be able to find that in the HTML and do their thing. Locate is a field that we are still working on at the moment. But what we'll do is be able to click an icon in here, and then it would highlight back on your original webpage, the element that we're talking about. And the ID here is just a simple way to have a unique ID for each row. Again, in case you want to export this and import this to kind of a problem management system, you would have a way to track it individually with a unique identifier. So that's the header here. Now, the thing you have to remember is Java Inspect is not an accessibility platform that refers back to any sort of accessibility standards, say like a wiki standard. It's really meant, solely meant, to reflect what a Jaws users world is like. So it's up to the tester to go through row by row by row and think through and put themselves in a Jaws user's shoes. If something may be confusing or not enough context around it, or out of order, whatever it may be, something illogical. So hopefully I'm going to hit on a couple of the things I'll mention here as I go through here. So, first thing I notice here is this end link row. And I think Al had mentioned that, he had heard that on his Jaws, and he had mentioned that, you know, he didn't really know what that meant. It sends something that's in what? Well, as you can see here as a visual person, you would be able to go, oh, okay. Yeah, that's probably not sufficient for a Jaws user because there's no real good context around this. If I go back to the webpage, so we can see, there's that send button again that Al mentioned. So, the other thing Al had mentioned was contacts and mail link three times in a row. You may remember that we have that here with these three people to contact them, but Al didn't know that, and there's no way out to know that because this is all he heard. So this is another thing that I might want to flag as something that could have used some remediation. So this is how you think through it. You kind of just use your own logical brain to kind of figure out what might or might not be something that could be problematic to a Jaws user. Let me go down to graphics and show you another one. This is one Al brought up as well. I'm wanting to jump down here to this particular graphic Yahoo, small business one, and here's Jaws, how correctly it pointed out what he heard was 1.0 slash YSB dash logo, dash BB, and a link graphic here. And that's way too cryptic for a Jaws user to know what that means. We, as visual people can see that, oh, it's a Jaws. Excuse me, it's a yahoo small business link. Oh, okay. Got it. I can click that and go check that out. But Al would not know that. So again, this is the full page report and that's the value of low page report and, and that's kind of it for this. So I'm gonna move on to the next report. And I'm going to go back to the top of the web page, and I'm going to invoke a Jaws Inspect again with a control right mouse click. And I'm going to go through and say all report. And again, that was the first function that Al had ran when he showed you his web page, when the speech was so quick, and this is going to do the same thing, it's just going to sequentially go from the top to the bottom, scroll through the code, crawl through the code and provide the exact order that Jaws would express it, using the same feature. So let's click it. And again, it's going to show up in a tab, in a separate tab in a moment, There we go. And I'm not going to repeat the header. It's virtually the same thing, but as you can see here, now we can see in the exact same order, sequentially, what Al heard on that page. So it starts out with heading level two link, Mater Money Financial Services, heading level Mater Money Financial Services, a heading level three serving clients since 1952. And on and on and on. Those are the same things you heard from AL's demo. Everything in yellow, here is the extra verbiage that Jaws provide. Again, everything in black is just the basic content on the page itself, visual content on the page itself. In this case, we're giving you actually also in the same exact order, what Al would've heard. He would've heard everything here in yellow first heading a level two link, heading level one level three links, etc. And then he would have heard the content. So this gives you actually a blow by blow exact replication of what a Jaws user is experiencing. So the idea here would be again, to go through this top to bottom. Make sure things look in a logical order. Make sure there's good context around it. Make sure nothing's alogical. Make sure that it's not confusing as you go through here. And you would notice some of the same things that Al mentioned earlier. Now this is a great way to see it, but if you want additional attributes associated with this report, similar to what you saw in the previous report, you just click table and you can see here at the header that we have all the same kind of fields and it's going to still be in the same order the original one is. But now I can kind of pick and choose again. If I want to download and upload any of these particular rows based on some remediation you might want to do. So again, it's a mimic, say all report mimicking the same thing that Al saw. I'm going to go through one more report here today. I'll had showed you how he tabbed it out, kind of through the page. We call that in the Jaws Inspect world the show speech viewer report. I call this a user journey, a Jaws users journey through any picket or webpage. And we get to the top again, in this case, the report is going to come up in a slightly different format. It's going to be kind of a floating report on top of the web page. And if I click that, you'll see a pop-up and all I really have to do is same thing Al did, really. I'm just going to mimic what Al view. And I'm going to first put the focus back on the webpage here behind the report. And you can see the first thing that comes up is the Mater Money Financial Services. Whoops. I don't know why we lost it. There we go. Let's that's good. You can see that it keeps picking everything up, but if I go back here and now I start tabbing through like Al did, every element it hits, it's showing me that what the Jaws speech operator would have been able to hear under the column text. I can also, if I want, besides tabbing through, sometimes Al and Jaws users would arrow down row by row, by row by row. And we'll pick that up as well. So as you can see, this is why I call it a user journey. This is what Al did earlier, and this is mimicking the same thing. And this allows me to see what the Jaws speech output would be in this particular user journey. If you want to save, here we call save but not export, but it's the same thing it'll save out to a CSV file. And that's the value of the Jaws contributor report. Just a little side note, I'm not going to show you today, but we have the same report in Jaws Inspect for what I would call desktop applications like Word or PDF, or pretty much anything by any vendor, that would do the same thing in those sort of files versus a webpage. So that, that can be valuable. Specially for people that need to see if a PDF is accessible for a Jaws user. I'm going to mention a couple of other things. We do have some other reports here on element or mouse is just really a way to get that same sort of report, of course, specific element on a page, instead of all the other noise you can pick and choose which one you want to see a report on element properties provides a little additional technical information that may be valuable to developers and engineer types. If you do have a live and you are pushing live content to a page that periodically changes, we can pick that up and you can see, you can make sure that Jaws is picking up the content changes that your live pushes. And, that's it, That's kind of the main things I wanted to show you today. So that's how I would approach if I was a tester using Jaws Inspect, to see how Al's world was like, and to determine where I can fix some things so that the webpages that I'm responsible for, that he would be using are as accessible as possible for him and is at least confusing as possible for him. And so that's Jaws Inspect and its value. So at this point, I'm going to turn it back over to Mike and we'll probably be taking questions, but I hope everybody got some information out of this. And at this point, Mike, I'll let you kind of wrap things up and then we'll go from there. - [Al Puzzuoli] Mike, can I add just one more thing real quick? - [Mike Mooney] Absolutely. - [Al Puzzuoli] Okay. There are some instances where a Jaws user is also the Jaws Inspect user, and in those instances you may not be a mouse user. So there are other ways to invoke Jaws Inspect. If you have an applications key on your keyboard, you can hold down the control key and hit the application's key instead of right clicking the mouse. And then also, if you are running Jaws simultaneously with Jaws Inspect, there is something in Jaws called the layered keystrokes that you can use. So you'd hit insert space and then followed by some other keystrokes. So the Jaws Inspect layer is "I", so it would be insert space "I", and then there are various keys, like for example, insert space, "I" one, invokes a full-page report. So there are other ways to invoke the product if you're not a mouse user. - [Mike DeSorda] Thank you Al. - [Mike Mooney] Yeah. So there's quite a few questions, Mike, I don't know if you wanted to read through them and answer them. - [Mike DeSorda] Yeah, we can do that. Let me access it here. Some I might be able to address some Al we'll probably address. And if there are any that we can't, we will absolutely get back to you. So I'm going to start here with Ron. And Ron says when a typical screen reader user navigates a webpage or document is it just a tab key and headings that are used for navigation? That would be an AL question. So... - [Al Puzzuoli] Oh, it's not just the tab key and headings tab key and headings are very useful. Think of tab as a way to quickly just jump between elements on the page. If I want to just move sequentially through maybe there's three links and then a button and then a form field I could just hit tab and continue to hit tab and just kind of sequentially move through all those elements. However, what tab does not do is tab does not get me the fine details of a page. So, you know if I want to read sentence by sentence or character by character or line by line, Jaws conveys a webpage and what's called a virtual buffer that renders it a lot like you would see a document in word. So one of the things that I do a lot is use my arrow keys. I can up and down arrow to read line by line. I can left and right arrow to read character by character or control left control right to read word by word. So basically I'm reading the webpage linearly as if it were a word document. Excuse me. And then there are other ways to navigate, you know, if the page is marked up with regions, I can navigate by regions or, you know, I can tell Jaws, move to the next button on the page, or there are a lot of different ways, but primarily what I'm doing as a Jaws user is tabbing and arrowing and then also using header navigation. And sometimes if I know a page well enough, and I know that there's a block of text I'm interested in far down on the page, I can do a search with Jaws and find that bit of text and then start arrowing from there. - [Mike DeSorda] Thank you Al, next question. Jack is, can the reader be set to sound as though it is a male? That's the first question. Now the second question is it sounds like a female. Oh, that's still part of the first question. Second question is, also how often and how well does the voice quality towards being a human sounding change and get updated? - [Al Puzzuoli] I didn't understand the first part of the question. Can you read that one again? - [Mike DeSorda] You'll have that second question. So the first question Al is, can you change it to a male sounding voice versus female? - [Al Puzzuoli] Oh yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah. That voice was a female voice. There are any number of male and female voices and other languages, other accents that we can use. You know, we leverage a lot of third party synthesizers, so there are many options. And as far as voice quality, again, since we leverage a lot of different third party synthesizers, it's really a matter of preference. So user can use the default synthesizer that Jaws comes with that first one, I let you hear it's called eloquence. And that is very fast, and it's very robotic, but it's very fast. And a lot of users believe it or not really prefer that sort of speech because it is very quick and very responsive. And as your arrowing around the screen, there's no lag time. You know, if I had an arrow key, I'm there, I'm hearing the next phrase or next word instantaneously, there's no latency. And if I hit the control key to stop Jaws, it stops on a dime. So, you know, some of the other voices have higher speech quality and sound more human, but at the cost of responsiveness. So, you know, it really is a matter of case. Maybe if I'm reading a book for pleasure, I will switch to a more responsive or I'm sorry, a less responsive, but higher quality voice with better inflection. But when I go on to get my work done day to day, I like using the eloquence voice because it's a lot quicker and a lot snappier. - [Mike DeSorda] Thanks Al. Our next question from Dave is how does Jaws Inspect handle a carousel? My recommendation there would be, you would probably want to use the speech viewer report, and while you have that report up and going, you would go back to the web page and invoke the carousel and it should show you whether or not Jaws is picking that up properly or not. Next question is from same Dave, how do I know that Jaws is saying something that would be acceptable to the end-user? If Jaws says contacts three different times, like we showed you here today, the tester could think that it is fine, but maybe I want one of the contacts to say, contact Bob Smith. So again, I sort of mentioned this. You have to put yourself in a blind person's shoes that is using Jaws itself, and you have to use your own reasoning and look at those rows. When I saw that row and I saw that it said contact three times, and I went back and looked at the page I realized that it was really different names and they're different people. And that that was not even in the Jaws speech output. That would be a clue to me that we need more context around those for the user. Now, the other thing is, if you happen to know a Jaws user in your organization, you can always ask them as well. And so I've learned a lot from Al, as a Jaws user, but you can certainly ask them, does that make sense or not? And then you would be able to capture that in a report format and send that off to be fixed. Next question from Greg, here in the initial demonstration, the screen reader at a faster speed emphasized the importance of following good writing for the web and link naming practices. Well said, Greg. Are there any additional writing for the web or link naming considerations people should have in mind? Knowing that some people were using a screen reader and such with advanced speech? Well, that's a big, big question. I think that kind of gets just generally to, how do you make your website generally accessible for sight impaired people. I'll let Al take a crack at those two, but I just want to say that's a big question. We also had other products in our organization that we're not getting into today, that do just out to that are not tied necessarily right to the Jaws screen, but test accessibility issues in general get standards out there. That would be one thing to consider if you got interested in that and Al would you have anything to add to this question? - [Al Puzzuoli] Yeah. One of the things that, that we see sometimes is people who are very well-meaning being overly verbose in their links or in their options. I was working with a site the other day and there were radio buttons. And, you know, like for example, there were two buttons. There was a yes and a no. And all they need to say in that instance is yes and no, those should be the names of the buttons. This site said would you like to select the yes option? That was the name of the yes button. The no button was, would you like to select the no button? So "what'd you like to select" I heard that twice. Two seconds of my life I will never get back. And that sounds melodramatic, but those two seconds, I mean, as a screen reader user, I'm experiencing things like that several times a day, they had up man. So... Think about what you're trying to convey and make sure that you convey the information as, you know, you want it to be useful, but you want it to be as succinct as possible. And you want the most meaningful part of the link to be at the beginning. So that's one of the pieces of advice I can offer and we can of course offer a lot more and go into more detail with consultations. - [Mike DeSorda] Thank you Al. Next question. Is there a way to make it read one thousand nine hundred fifty two as the reader read, versus 1952, I guess like we would normally say, right? - [Al Puzzuoli] Yeah. A lot of that depends on the synthesizer you're using. And there are, there are ways in Jaws to tell it, do you want Jaws to process numbers or do you want the synthesizer to process numbers? How do you wanna handle dates? How do you want to handle numbers of X amounts of digits? What if there's a dash? There's all sorts of rules that you can customize as a screen reader user with your screen reader. Now, one thing to remember about Jaws Inspect, Jaws Inspect assumes the Jaws out of box settings. So when you see the Jaws Inspect speech output, I guess there really would be no other way to convey 1952 except this numbers. But you know, when you see the Jaws Inspect speech output, there are some things in Jaws where you can change verbosity or you can change the way that Jaws speaks things. Jaws Inspect is always going to show you Jaws based on its default settings. But again, back to your question, a lot of those numerical settings, punctuation settings, there are hundreds and hundreds of settings in Jaws. I've been a Jaws user for probably close to 25 years. And I know probably 75 to 80% of the settings by heart, but there are a lot that I just find. Sometimes I find them like, wow, I didn't know you could change that. So it's very flexible. It's very powerful. But that said as a screen reader user, a lot of times this information, what you're hearing just becomes a channel into your brain and you kind of don't even pay attention to how it's being said anymore. You just take in the information. - [Mike DeSorda] Thank you Al, Luke has a question and yeah, if I had any idea what it meant, then I would be able to answer, but I'll read it anyway. Do you know how this reporting application handles math ML embedded within HTML and untagged PDFs? I have no clue what that even means, but maybe Al has an idea. - [Al Puzzuoli] I know what that means, but we have not tested it as far as I know. I would assume it would just read what Jaws would say and therefore it should give us the correct speech output, but I have not tested it with math ML. Yeah. - [Mike DeSorda] And that's a good point. I had to stop you Al, you said a very important thing just to kind of hammer home the point. Remember if you see it, or if you don't see it in Jaws Inspect, then it's probably not being expressed by Jaws. If you see it in Jaws Inspect, it most certainly is being expressed by Jaws. It's kind of the point, right? It's like 99% chance. That's going to be true. So, Luca has another question Al, let's see. Based on Ron's question, does the shift tab combination work as a dozen other programs returning to the previous object? - [Al Puzzuoli] Yes. Shift tab does return to the previous item and tab goes to the next item. - [Mike DeSorda] Very good. Mark asked is TPGi operate certification course for an individual who may want to become proficient in Jaws Inspect and web accessibility to being an internal resource for a company or agency. So, I'll take that on. The answer is not to my knowledge. However, I will want, I do want to add this. If you ever buy into our Jaws Inspect product we offer, and I do actually the sessions here, but we do demos and I do onboarding free of charge for anybody that is a client. A paid for a client for Jaws Inspect. So, though there may not be any particular certification for it. you will certainly get an onboarding session with me and have training and become proficient that way. And I would go into a lot more detail than you saw here today. - [Al Puzzuoli] Can I go back to that prior question real quick? - [Mike DeSorda] Sure. - [Al Puzzuoli] About shift tab, just to make a quick distinction. Those keys are browser-based keys. Those are not key specific to Jaws. So just FYI, you can play with tab and shift in your browser without even running Jaws or Jaws Inspect. - [Mike DeSorda] Okay, thanks Al. I want just one last thing Mark said about, he wanted to know of web accessibility, if you can get training or certification web accessibility in general for our internal resources. So our company also offers, we have web accessibility engineers on our company that offer consulting. So maybe I'll put it that way. So if you need web accessibility consulting just in general, specially against standards, then TPGi offers that as well. Jill asked, Jaws Inspect help me test or understand the way to navigate with carets? I think we answered that already. Can Inspect call-out expected behavior for a control? Al do you know? - [Al Puzzuoli] Well Inspect is going to tell you how Jaws reads that control. And you'd probably want to use the speech viewer in that situation. So you would launch the speech viewer and then navigate the control and see how Inspect would read it. The other way Inspect might be useful with when you're dealing with a control as if you brought up the full page report and looked at your categories, and maybe you expected something to be a radio button, but it's not showing up as a radio button. Then that would mean Jaws probably isn't going to see it as a radio button either. And you might need to add some RER or do something else. - [Mike DeSorda] Yeah. The other thing I would say, remember, Jaws Inspect is not to provide you expected behavior in general is providing new the actual behavior that a Jaws user would experience. So again, you have to remember its purpose. Dave asked, is Jaws Inspect testers know that an element is navigable in the inspected way? Al, you know? - [Al Puzzuoli] Inspected, I mean, I don't know what that's referring to. Expected maybe? I don't know. Again, I think it's kind of the same answers. - [Mike DeSorda] Maybe it's the same, maybe it was meant to be expected. So Joe had the same question as Dave, Kevin and Mark. Can you give some of the costs of Jaws Inspect use and access? Yeah, I prefer not to. Al and I are not in the sales department. We're not account managers or sales reps. But Mike I'm sure will be very happy to put you in contact with people who can give you pricing information after the webinar, if you contact Mike. and Mike might want to say some more about that. - [Mike Mooney] Yeah. Go ahead. Al, you were gonna say something? - [Al Puzzuoli] I'm just gonna say, I don't know if you want to talk about this first, but we had a question that came to us before the presentation that we probably want to catch on. - [Mike Mooney] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So Mark, I'll follow up with you after the session and connect you with one of our colleagues and yeah, Al so the question that came in earlier was from Jack and he has asked... I'm just trying to pull it up here. It was regarding alt text. And so the question is, would Jaws screen reader read both the alt text and the description below the image? So sometimes images have captions underneath them, but they also can have alt texts. So with the screen reader, it, you know, read or review both of those lines. - [Al Puzzuoli] Yes, it would. - Okay. And then... He has a couple of others in the chat box. Hold on one second. - [Al Puzzuoli] Mike I think there's something about the length of all texts as well? - [Mike Mooney] Yeah, yeah. Sorry. So, not positioning the markup use of all the attributes, but also how long is too long for a screen reader to talk and read texts, specially for an audience of cognitively and visually disabled adults. - [Al Puzzuoli] Yeah. So this is kind of a matter of debate, and it's a matter of preference for a lot of people. My preference is to be succinct as possible. I looked at the side effect was given to us and that all texted us very vivid and very good. However, one thing to keep in mind is that some platforms are going to truncate all texts to fit if it goes much past a hundred characters. So, you know, one thing that I like to kind of say is if you're gonna provide all texts, maybe pretend that you're posting to Twitter and you've got 140 character tweet to work with anything significantly longer than that, you're going to run the risk of some, some technologies truncating it. And if you really need to go longer than that, probably the best thing to do would be to maybe have a link to a more in-depth description at that point. Because again, some users are going to really enjoy hearing that verbose description, and some users are going to just say, man, I just want to move on to the next thing. And you can't really please everybody. And probably the best way to do that is if it's past a certain length, than have a way for somebody to dig into that description in more depth if they want to. - [Mike Mooney] Yeah. That makes sense. And there's another question as well, and I'll try to summarize it. So he says, this is from Jack Who sets the speed and quality of the speech reader for disabled website visitor who has never used such a system before? Yeah, go ahead. - [Al Puzzuoli] The user does. And you know, this is kind of a thing that I've worked with with people on before. Sometimes developers ask about programmatically setting preferences for a user, and that's really not a good idea. You want the end user to be able to control that stuff. And there's really no way to programmatically set it anyway, but there are a lot of scenarios where, you know, if somebody is first coming into this stuff, they've had training typically and they've worked with a rehab agent or somebody, and they've worked together to determine that user speed. And then over time, the user can change their own preferences or whatever. So for the most part, the web developer worry about your content being WCG compliant, worry about that sort of thing. But as far as how the end users going to hear at what speed the end-user's going to hear it, you know what punctuation they're going to hear. That's all stuff that they should be left to decide for themselves. - [Mike Mooney] Great. I've got a couple more questions here. This one is from Tracy, can you customize the ID so it matches an in-house system? Or is it only system generated from Inspect? - [Al Puzzuoli] Yeah. Those IDs are system generated from Inspect. As far as I know, there's not a way to customize them. - [Mike DeSorda] Yeah. There's no way to customize it. If we can find the ID and the we'll pull that ID. And if we can't find it, then the proxy server will provide a random ID like you saw. Now, once you export it into an Excel file, of course you can change all the ideas you want. Right? But not within the tool itself. - [Mike Mooney] I've got another question from Beth. Would this work with e-learning modules? These are typically built using one of just a handful of tools. Some put the content within "I" frames and the structure is slide slash page based. So you have to select the next to advance to the next piece of content. I think when she says next by like next, yeah. - [Al Puzzuoli] I mean it would work, but you'd have to run the report for each slide manually. - [Mike Mooney] Okay. And then this is from Kevin. You guys talked about context earlier, a button without context. How does one in for context, is this just an experience over time sort of thing? - [Al Puzzuoli] It kind of depends on the page. I mean, if there's a checkbox with no label, I don't know what I'm checking or unchecking, or a send mail link that has no label. The send mail link should convey at least the email address to me of where it's going. Or, you know, another example of bad context is a link called click here. Click, where, what is that doing? Where is it taking me? You know? Maybe the link should be contact us link or help link or whatever. Never use a link that's ambiguous. And you don't know where it's taking you. - [Mike Mooney] That dreaded click here button. The web is filled with them. Right? - [Al Puzzuoli] Yep. And if you're just tabbing and you don't have any context, you're going to hear click here and it's like, well, okay. Why? - [Mike Mooney] Yeah. No, it makes sense. Awesome. Well, I know we're at the, kind of the top of the hour here. I wanted to thank you both for joining us today and thank everyone for attending. I will follow up with everyone with an email, with a link to the recording. Once the video has been processed. And if you have any other questions, you can email us at info@tpgi.com. - [Mike DeSorda] Thank you everyone. - [Mike Mooney] Awesome. - [Al Puzzuoli] Thanks. - [Mike Mooney] Thank you. Bye bye.