Speaker 1: Welcome to the Real People, Real Stories podcast, brought to you by the Paciello Group, bringing you the interesting and diverse stories of individuals working to make the world a more inclusive place. Mark Miller: Hey, welcome to Real People, Real Stories podcast brought to you by the Paciello Group and it's affiliated interactive accessibility. I am your host, Mark Miller, thanking you for helping us keep it accessible. Do us a favor, if you're enjoying the podcast, share it. Tell someone about it. Hey, even link to it from your accessible website. So thanks everybody for joining us. Thank you, Marissa, producer Marissa, for being on the podcast with us today and for all the hard work that you do pulling this together every single time. And Steve, welcome and thank you for joining. Steve Sawczyn: Well Mark, Marissa, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. Mark Miller: Well, it's great to have you. So Steve, we want to talk to you about a few different things here. First of all, we work in accessibility, the podcast is about accessibility and you rely on accessibility all the time. So can you tell us a little bit about why you rely on accessibility? Steve Sawczyn: Well, I am totally blind. I've been blind since birth. And so accessibility's always been a part of who I am. It's more than a career, it's a way of life in a way. And technology's evolved at such an incredible rate and amazing things have become possible because they've been made accessible. So, that just jazzes me up even more about accessibility. Mark Miller: Yeah. That's a good point and that's something that we often end up talking about is just how much technology has evolved and how exciting that is. I think especially for folks like yourself who are blind, it really has opened up a lot of possibilities just being able to work, using computers on the internet. But then equally frustrating when those things aren't quite built accessibly and it becomes difficult. I think that before the mics heated up here, we were even talking about an experience that you've had where you're trying to do something on the web and it provided a challenge. How do you find that? In your workday, are you really able to navigate things pretty well now or are there a lot of things that are still jumping out at you and causing problems? Steve Sawczyn: Well, it's an interesting question because on the one hand, as I've remarked to many fellow friends who are blind, it's a great time to be blind. We have more access to information than we've ever had- Mark Miller: Everybody should do it. Steve Sawczyn: Yeah. Everyone should do it, right? Jump on him. But seriously, I remember growing up, the thing I used to hate when I was at school was going to the library. I don't know if kids even do that anymore, but back in my day, kids would go the library every week. And it was the most boring thing ever because everyone would be able to get a book and I'd have to get the one braille book that they had. And it was usually a really bad book that I never would have ordered myself, but it was the only thing I could have. And magazines would come out and the kids would get all these different magazines and I'd get my copy in braille six weeks later. And no one would care because everything I had was old news. Well, fast forward to now and we have everything digital on my phone, I can get everything the second it's published. If there's a new book that's released, I can download the accessible version from Amazon or Apple or a number of different sources. In fact, I have multiple sources. I'm not restricted to just one and that's real awesome stuff. Then we have situations where my daughter was going on a field trip and they needed to have a consent form filled out from parents. And I couldn't do it. The form is totally inaccessible. So I'm the one parent who- Mark Miller: Was that a physical form, Steve? Steve Sawczyn: No, it was- Mark Miller: Online? Steve Sawczyn: It was a PDF, quote fillable form where all I heard was edit, edit, edit, edit. And then of course you have to print it and sign it. And I wasn't sure how to deal with that. And of course the school was like, "Well, do you have anyone that could help you with it?" And I thought, "Yeah, okay." So, it's great that we have so much access, but in work and in life, I still encounter things that pose significant accessibility challenges. And I think the thing that people don't realize is that, it's very demoralizing to not be able to do something that's simple or something that everyone else can do. And you can't do it because of an accessibility challenge. It's hard to separate that and not feel dumb or inadequate, or inadequate as a person, as a parent and I think that takes a huge toll, at least on me. And so, I think accessibility is in part being able to do stuff, but also how not being able to do that thing makes you feel. The psychological, emotional impact that that has, is huge. Mark Miller: It's a great point. And I think it's something that I hope more and more people started to pay attention to. I can remember once I was coming back from an accessibility conference and as I was standing in line to get my ticket at the airport, there was a blind gentleman in front of me and I identified he was blind because he had a white cane. So I said, "Hey, how's it going? Did you just come from this conference?" Because, a lot of people with varying disabilities are often at the same conferences that we are. And he's like, "Oh yeah." So we were chatting and everything. And then as we got up to the line, he couldn't get access to the teller because she was tied up and. But there was a kiosk and so I'm helping them out. I'm like, "There's a teller, but she's really busy. It doesn't look like she's going to forget very soon, but there's a kiosk here." And I said, "I don't think it's accessible, but if it's okay with you, I'm happy to help you through it." And he reluctantly was like, "Okay." And then as we were working that out, the teller freed up. And so I said, "The teller freed up." And then I looked at her and said, "Would you mind helping him get his ticket?" You know what she said? "Why can't he just use the kiosk?" Steve Sawczyn: Use the kiosk, yeah. Mark Miller: And I'm like, "Oh!" That was, it was so painful. And I said, "Well" , and then Edith jumped in or I jumped in or somebody was like, "He's blind. Can he do it?" But he wanted to work with a teller. And not this guy that he was developing a relationship or friendship. You don't want your friends to sit there and plug in your credit card number and all that stuff. So, I think you use the term demoralizing, but that's when other people have to do stuff for you. Steve Sawczyn: Yeah. Mark Miller: Of course that's the experience, right? And that's the advantage of accessibility is that, presumably you can do it yourself. Steve Sawczyn: Exactly. And especially if it's a private thing, right? Like if you go to the doctor. I've gone to the doctor and they've asked my eight year olds to help me with paperwork. And I'm like, "He can't spell these words. How's he supposed to bless?" Maybe I don't want him to, or my wife will go with me and they just assume she's a caregiver. Or in one infamous case, my wife was with me at the doctor and the doctor turned to turn to her and said, "Are you mom?" Mark Miller: Nevermind accessibility or any of that. That hits on a few levels. Marissa Sapega: That is horrifying. Mark Miller: Did you guys attend his subsequent funeral? Marissa Sapega: Yeah. Steve Sawczyn: She was livid. She was just outraged and I should have stood up for her, but I'm like, "She thinks you're my mom." That was great. It makes it tough because they just assume, right? Mark Miller: Yeah. Steve Sawczyn: And my question is, well geez, why can't we pre fill out these forms? Mark Miller: Right. Steve Sawczyn: It's the same form. They're just copying it. Can I print it out or just submit it online? In this digital age, why should how to complete a paper form, be a thing? That's just silly to me. Mark Miller: Right? Steve Sawczyn: And if it is a thing fine, but then there's an awareness piece of, maybe we should ask the person how they need help. If they need help or what kind of help they need. Mark Miller: Would you like? Steve Sawczyn: How would you like? Exactly. Mark Miller: Comedy? Steve Sawczyn: Exactly. Mark Miller: The other interesting thing, Steve, that you brought up and this is something that we've seen since the pandemic, right? Is, a lot of education, schools now are more focused on accessibility because their student body has been forced home and to participate over the internet, right? But the one thing that's come out of that, that is ancillary that nobody thought of, that you don't think about out of the gate is parents with disabilities and their ability to support their kids. So maybe they have kids without disabilities and their kids are fine, on the zoom classes and submitting their homework and all this stuff. But then when it comes time to help them, or like in your case to fill out that form, they're not accessible for that parent who has a disability or who's blind. And so it's really interesting and this is turning into a question for you, I promise. But it's something that this pandemic has flushed out if you will, right? Are there certain things that you're finding, like certain new challenges that are being presented to you because of the pandemic and because of the new normal that we all live in? Steve Sawczyn: I think transportation's the big one. Uber and Lyft, of course, they're still operational, which is great. But especially in the beginning of the pandemic, doing things like getting groceries was a challenge because you have services like Instacart and Amazon's Prime Now, and similar services. But it was hard because everyone was using them, right? Demand was far out pacing the availability of people. So ordering groceries was a real challenge. And I had some friends of mine who were blind that were struggling to find household cleaners and other products. Because traditionally what would happen is if you couldn't use those services, you could go to the store, go to customer service and they might find someone to help you shop in store. But now, no one wants to be within six feet, you can't hold onto someone's arm, touching a cart is a yucky thought. And so how do you do that? How do you do that in store experience? What does that look like? And so, getting help in store is a real challenge, which might be somewhat mitigated if the delivery services were working more effectively or efficiently. And like I say, they've gotten better, but initially it was a real mess. And so that posed a real challenge. I think for me, good and bad has come out of it. I mean, again, it's hard to independently do things because of all the social distancing stuff. I hate going to a store and if I have to stand in line, I don't know where the dot is that I'm supposed to stand on. And of course, I always feel stupid saying, "Can you tell me if I'm supposed to move further away from you?" To the person ahead because that's weird and they probably have their own anxieties. They don't want me close to them, which I get. So, there's a whole level of challenge and frustration that surrounds physical in-store type experiences or going out in public, going to a restaurant and anything like that. On the other hand, there are some pros in that a lot of stores have curbside pickup and that sort of stuff that didn't use to have it. So now it's possible in a lot of cases to order stuff and just to go pick it up curbside or get it curbside. And I thought, "Wow, that would have been cool if we could do it before like that." And so some good things have come out, but definitely some challenges have come about as well. Mark Miller: We had a blind gentleman here in town who would walk around town quite a bit. And right when the pandemic started, he was declaring that his white cane was a social distancing stick. So he could- Steve Sawczyn: That works. Marissa Sapega: I guess. Mark Miller: That they'd stay far. Maybe that's a tip for you, Steve. You just poke them with that stick. Steve Sawczyn: Just poke him with that. There was a YouTube, I think, or something where someone had taken those pool noodles, those floatable ones- Mark Miller: Yes. Steve Sawczyn: And made a hat. I thought, "I need this in my life." That would be so awesome. Mark Miller: I'm glad you mentioned that, right? Because I think that Marissa Sapega: The pool hat? Mark Miller: The pool hat, yeah, no. But also, but also YouTube, right? And this is why. Marissa and I are very comfortable and used to being around people who are blind because we work with people who are blind every single day, right? But people who might be listening to this podcast and don't have that kind of exposure, I can imagine right now, they're thinking, "Wait, how do you know?" Right? You saw a YouTube video and you know, the guy had a pool tube. You're blind, do you even watch YouTube? Right? And again, Marissa and I know these answers, but can you take a moment and just describe how you participate in something like YouTube and how the accessibility of that works for you? And what helps you sort of enjoy something like a video online more if certain things are available to you. Steve Sawczyn: Gosh! It's hard to- Mark Miller: It's a terribly constructed question, I'm sorry. Steve Sawczyn: No, I totally get it. And it's hard to imagine that there was a time before YouTube. What did we do all day at work? Mark Miller: How do we learn how to do stuff? Steve Sawczyn: Yeah, exactly. Mark Miller: It's time to rake my leaves again. Let me see if I can find a YouTube. Steve Sawczyn: A YouTube on that. Exactly. YouTube is for everything. I think that's a great question that you asked because blind people do watch TV. They look at videos, it's a visual world, right? And we've got to use visual language. We don't have to change the language that we use because otherwise it's a really weird, awkward conversation, "Hey, did you see the game last? I mean, did you hear it? Did you, did you", no. Did you watch the game? Mark Miller: I've corrected many a friend. I'm like, "Just say the word." Steve Sawczyn: Just say it, exactly. You're going to look way more awkward if you try to go around it. YouTube is great, it's awesome. I think the big accessibility challenge is that when people are descriptive and talk about what they're doing, it's a really great experience for me. But when people don't talk about what they're doing, then of course it's a real challenge. So, imagine for example, you have a video and someone's showing something on how to do something online and they say things like, "Okay, so now we're going to click over here and you can see this opened up and I'm going to go down, down. All right, I got that and then as you can see, this is highlighted." You have no idea what the person's talking about and if they did that same video, they could say something without adding a lot of extra time or anything they could say, "Okay, I'm going to click on the file tab and now coming down over here, we've got this print icon. I'm going to click on that. And it's showing my list of printers now. And the top one, it says, default, I'm going to click the print button over here and my document's going to print." And so you're adding just a few extra words to be descriptive. And even though I can't see exactly what the person's doing in the video, I have enough context now to probably be able to follow along. So, YouTube is awesome. I think what I love about it is everyone can do it. You don't have to have fancy equipment. Anyone can do it and- Mark Miller: We're doing it right now. Steve Sawczyn: Exactly, right? Even we can do it. It's fantastic. Marissa Sapega: Yeah. You know, Steve, your story reminds me of something that Mark actually brought to our attention. The CDC, I think, had a page on their site that was describing how to make a mask. And there were images, it was a three-step process to make your own mask. And it's all text, were step one, step two and step three. Mark Miller: That's the all text routine. Marissa Sapega: That's really helpful. Mark Miller: This complicated visual, like folding instruction and then alt, alt image, step one. Marissa Sapega: Step one. Mark Miller: Step two. Marissa Sapega: So if you're blind, you're just going to have to get COVID- Mark Miller: That did not help. Marissa Sapega: They did not tell you how make your own mask. Mark Miller: And that was a case where the actual instructions were part of the image. So it was an image of a page that had the visual instructions and then the written instructions, but the written instructions were an image. It was all- Marissa Sapega: Just a big doo-doo. Mark Miller: It was all sorts of wrong. But the funny thing is, there were two separate descriptions on that page. One of them was fully accessible and perfect. And the other one was this odd, little not accessible thing we had. Steve Sawczyn: A while ago, I worked for a big retailer. I don't know if I can name them or not, but either way, I worked for a large retailer and they had this video that- Mark Miller: I know who he's talking about. Steve Sawczyn: Showed tying ties. And the whole premise of this video was it was a 30 second video. And in that time, they showed a bazillion ways that you can tie your tie. The idea being that you would see this video- Mark Miller: That's a lot of ways. Steve Sawczyn: That's the knot that I want. But how do you describe that? Right? The whole point was it's supposed to be fast paced and they're doing it really fast. Mark Miller: Are you looking to describe the knot or are you looking to describe the process of tying the knot? Steve Sawczyn: The process, exactly. It's really complicated, right? And I think what we did then, and this was years ago was we put a link to a more verbose description of the process. And here's how you have to, because a lot of it is, how you have to hold the tie and which hand you cross over which one, so you don't tie your thumbs together. It's a pain. And so we had a text-based document that provided a lot of description, but linked to it from the video. So tat if someone needed that description, they could have it. And if they didn't, then they didn't, but it solved the problem of, "Oh my gosh, we can't add description to this video because then it's going to be a half-hour long, which probably would have been, that's okay. As long as the information is available, I don't mind clicking an extra link, I'm cool with that. I just need to know where it is and not have to search all over the world to find it. Marissa Sapega: You just roll them out over here. Mark Miller: I now think that audio describing, tying and tie should be the final exam in audio description school? Steve Sawczyn: That would be great, yes. Marissa Sapega: In under three seconds. You have to describe five different ways to do that. Mark Miller: And that is just for our listeners. Really, there is a technical term for what we're dancing around here. There's two things, there's just describing something and then there's actually something called audio description that you wouldn't see it on a YouTube video necessarily unless an organization that was really conscientious had created it. But a lot of your Netflix shows, for example, in fact, the first one was Daredevil, which is the blind superhero show. That was the first show that Netflix ever offered with audio description. And that's where in the gaps in the dialogue and sound effects and stuff like that, they're actually describing things that are occurring that are not obviously able to be discerned from the rest of the audio track. So, there is a way that people handle this and to make things more accessible. And the other interesting point, Steve, that I think that I want to tease out of this is that, when you talk about, with your example, when you're like click over here, click over there, here's the dropdown menu. That is great for you as a person who's blind because it gives you that context, right? But unintentionally, so I have talked about on the podcast, oftentimes I have both dyslexia and ADD, mildly. And even though it's a completely different thing, when somebody is that descriptive, as they're doing something visual, that second method of input helps me. It keeps me locked in and focused. And usually, I don't have to watch it a second time oftentimes or whatever. So, sometimes these things where we're learning how to accommodate for somebody who's blind, for example, are really helping other people. I mean, it goes back to the old Siri was an assistive technology before, it's something we all used. Steve Sawczyn: It's funny, that's something that also has emerged from this pandemic. I think about, I'm in a lot of online meetings as I'm sure is basically everyone at this point. And the first question that gets asked in every single meeting is, "Can everybody see my screen?" Right? It's the first thing everyone says that, right? And I think, "Okay, first off I can't. Blind people can't see your screen." But what about people that are watching the meeting on their phone or are driving or looking after their toddler let's be honest. We've all been in meetings where you hear someone warming up a snack in the background. They're not looking at their screen. It's not about disability, but about, is someone contextually in a place where they can see the screen blind or not, right? And what I'm finding is, adding that extra description as you're talking through the PowerPoint or whatever it is you're doing, not only is it going to help me, but it's going to help people who are looking on a really tiny little screen on their phone, or aren't even looking at it at all. They're not going to see your colorful PowerPoint. And so if you use descriptive words, instead of saying, "This, here, like this." Mark Miller: And you sound smarter. Steve Sawczyn: And you sound smarter, you just sound better. So, it benefits everyone. It doesn't even benefit just people with disabilities or a particular disability, but everyone. Because it's such a challenge now, given everything going on in these crazy times to focus in on any screen share, right? So, it's really beneficial to everyone. Mark Miller: Yeah. That's a really good point. And I think that we, as people who work in the industry get pretty good at that, but it's a fantastic best practice. And that point about a lot of these accessibility things. We all have what we could classify as maybe temporary disabilities, right? Maybe you're with your phone out in the bright sunlight and you can't really, there's too much glare on the screen, but if the website's using proper color contrast ratios, you've got a better chance of seeing that under those specific conditions than you would otherwise. We all sprain a wrist and can't use a mouse, so keyboard accessibility helps. And it's amazing just how informative it can be to solve the needs for accommodations for various people. How informative that can be and how we can do things better for everyone and the overall importance. So that's a context and great story. Steve Sawczyn: Yeah. And it's a great time to do it because we're innovating, right? The best part of accessibility, the thing that keeps me going to work in the morning is that accessibility is really a springboard for innovation. Mark Miller: Yeah. Steve Sawczyn: I love that. Mark Miller: I agree. Steve Sawczyn: Earlier you mentioned Siri. But whether Siri or other digital assistants are just so many things, right? Accessibility really leads or fosters innovation. That's awesome. And I think we're all working in a different way, we're all interacting in a different way. So much of our lives have been turned upside down. And while that has its own stresses and such, it's also created a hotbed for innovation. We're rethinking how we do things, right? And we're rethinking them in a way that is going to benefit all of us. And that's really exciting to me because I think we have a unique opportunity. I know it's weird to think of the pandemic and opportunity in the same sentence. But as we reinvent how we do what we do and how we live, we can step back and take a look at it and be like, "How do we do this so we can all benefit? Whether I'm blind, whether I have a bad bandwidth internet connection, whether I'm on a mobile device, whether I'm driving." I want to include everyone, it doesn't matter. I just want to include everyone because we're all struggling to partake in this activity or attend this event or do this thing. And I'm excited about that. I think we have a possibility to, re-imagine a lot of stuff and we'll include accessibility by default because it just makes sense to do. Mark Miller: Really well said, Steve, and I think that to your point, I would say, how else do we look at a pandemic other than, as an opportunity? It's super easy to look at all the things that we can't do. We can't go out to eat anymore, or we can't, gather socially in large groups with our families. I know we've modify our holiday plans based on the pandemic. Those are easy things to look at. But I think that, when you have a challenge like that, just like when you have a challenge like a disability, looking at it as an opportunity is really the only way you should focus on it. Because that is the only way to really move forward and take advantage of it. And I think all the points that you made are fantastic around that. And you said it much more eloquently than I did and your voice is really cool. So I think we also should just trade roles, Steve. I don't know why you're not the host and I'm not the guest. Steve Sawczyn: We can just flip halfway through. And- Mark Miller: We just switch. Steve Sawczyn: We can confuse everyone who's who's watching this. Yeah. It would be fun. Mark Miller: Marissa, did you have something you wanted to add? Sorry. Speaker 5: Yeah, I wanted to say that your way of trying to put a better spin on a crisis of biblical proportions. One example of that is I have not gone to a Passover Seder in years because my mom's side of the family who was Jewish, they live about six hours away. And no, I'm not driving. But this year we had a zoom Seder and it was amazing because I got to see everybody and I got to enjoy their company, but I didn't have to drive. And we never ever would have done that had it not been for the fact that nobody was able to get together. Steve Sawczyn: That's awesome. Speaker 5: Yeah, tiny bright spots. Steve Sawczyn: It's really good. I mean, I've reached out to people I haven't called in years because I think, they're busy or I'm busy, right? And now I think, well, geez, they're probably at home doing the same thing I'm doing, which is nothing, right? Of course, they're going to be home and they are. And it's so great to make those connections. I hope that really continues. Mark Miller: Yeah. I hope we learn, I think we're learning and there's a lot of innovation and all those points, but I think in terms of behavior, really, I hope that there's some learning too. So Steve, are you still in Maine? I saw that you originally started an AT and training company in Maine at the beginning of your career. Is that where you hail from now? Steve Sawczyn: No, actually not at the moment. So yes, I started a Assistive Technology company in Maine where I met my wife. And so I sort of married into Maine and really loved Maine. Maine was home for a while. Mark Miller: Where in Maine were you? Steve Sawczyn: I was in Augusta, so right in the Capitol. Marissa Sapega: Oh, nice. Steve Sawczyn: Yeah. And then I got a contract opportunity with Target corporation and it was supposed to be a three week opportunity. And so I came to Minneapolis for three weeks, except that halfway through it, they asked if I could stay another three weeks. And then they said, "Could you stay a few more weeks?" And that went for about a year. And after a year, my wife said, "You have to come home or we're going to come out there." Because we have two kids and a position opened up. So I had to call her about two weeks before I was supposed to go home and say, "Well, actually you guys are going to move here." So I was popular, let me tell ya, kids loved me. Mark Miller: She said, "Great!" Steve Sawczyn: Yes. I was like, "What are you doing today? Do you mind packing?" Marissa Sapega: You mind moving? Mark Miller: Can you get that box right there? Steve Sawczyn: Exactly. She'll forgive me eventually, at least that's what I've told myself. This was about nine years ago. Anyway, we live just outside of Minneapolis. I'm not with Target anymore, but we relocated here and we live outside Minneapolis and we always get to this time of the year and wonder why we're still here as it's like 15 degrees and snowing and stuff. Mark Miller: We'll Maine, wouldn't be much better. Steve Sawczyn: Well, it'd be like 30 degrees and snowing. Mark Miller: So, I'll let the cat out of the bag here. I'm in Southern New Hampshire so I'm not- Steve Sawczyn: Fantastic. Mark Miller: Far, I'm couple hours from Augusta. My family, my father's side of the family's really from the Camden Lincolnville area. Steve Sawczyn: Fantastic, cool. Mark Miller: That's East right on the coast from Augusta and we've been in the seventies. So yes, it would be quite a bit warmer here. Steve Sawczyn: Yeah. There's that. Mark Miller: But I'm always thinking I need to move South because it's still cold. Steve Sawczyn: Well, South, rarely do you hear, I think I'm the only person who found the place colder to move to than the one I left. I mean, if you think about it, I really didn't have any options for colder environment. Even Alaska is warmer than we have. I remember we had one time, I was so proud of this. We had one day where the high was negative 15 or something. And I tweeted out that the weather in Minnesota was actually warmer than the weather on Mars that the low in Minnesota was warmer than the high on Mars or something like that. And NASA retweeted it. It was my 30 seconds of fame. Marissa Sapega: That's amazing. Steve Sawczyn: I could totally die then. Mark Miller: You're that guy I knew, I knew you from somewhere. Steve Sawczyn: Yes. I got a retweet for NASA. Totally stupid pointless tweet. But yes, it was my moment of space fame that I called out Minnesota for being warmer than Mars. Mark Miller: Is that a new Andy Warhol? Everybody has their 15 minutes of fame and you have your 15 minutes of space fame which is way better than regular fame. Steve Sawczyn: Right. So, it didn't even get it 30 seconds, but still. Marissa Sapega: Know what, take the win. Mark Miller: So where are you working now, Steve? Steve Sawczyn: So now I work for Optum, which is part of United health group. Mark Miller: And can you tell us a little bit about your job and what you're doing there for them? Steve Sawczyn: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm part of their accessibility team. We have a pretty large accessibility team and healthcare is very important for me. We've had a number of healthcare or health emergencies and issues in my family. And accessibility to healthcare is really important to me. So I'm proud that United Health Group and Optum are focused on accessibility and making sure that all of the stuff that our members see, all the member facing information and stuff is, is accessible. And that that's a priority because when you're dealing with healthcare, dealing with accessibility is really the last thing you should have to do or even want to do. You want to be focused on getting the info you need on getting better or whatever's going on needs to be the primary focus. And I know when I was going through a bunch of medical stuff or my family was, my focus needed to be on them. Not trying to figure out how to make the website work. So, I work with a lot of the development teams at United health group and work to ensure that as they're building new and exciting things that they're doing it with accessibility in mind, that accessibility is part of the process and it's just part of what happens. Mark Miller: Wonderful. And I think your point about healthcare is just one of those areas where it's incredibly important. And going back to the pandemic thing, obviously that's probably more underscored nowadays than even before- Steve Sawczyn: Yeah. Mark Miller: How important it is. So, good work that you do, man. Steve Sawczyn: I appreciate it. it's been a little crazy with all the COVID stuff, making sure that information is accessible, but just because of how frequently, how fast and furious it's coming. But it's so important, right? Now, more than ever to have timely information and to make sure that information is accessible. It's just so critical and I'm just really proud that technology and the internet and everything has evolved to a place where that can be a reality. I think 15, 20 years ago, that might not have been possible. We might've had the special braille version of information, which you'd get six weeks after the print one, right? We were really, going back to the whole, it's a great time to be blind thing. Access to information, we've got capability now that we've never had and that's really, really awesome. We can be a lot better informed. Mark Miller: My favorite thing about your, it's a good time to be blind to analogy is just imagining you with your kids with your own blind back in my day. Like, back in my day, we didn't get the braille magazine until six weeks later. Steve Sawczyn: Oh gosh. Marissa Sapega: You kids don't know how spoiled you are. [crosstalk 00:35:08] Steve Sawczyn: Pictures, pictures are other one. I have a blind friend of mine and he has a young child and he was taking pictures. They were at some event. And I thought, wow! With image recognition- Marissa Sapega: Yeah. And storage being virtually free and limitless, you can take pictures now, family pictures and actually enjoy them. Back in my day, we've got albums. My wife is an avid scrapbooker and photo album person, we've got books of albums that I can't enjoy at all, I gan nothing out of them. And of course, back in my day, it was expensive to take pictures because you had to have them developed and not like these kids today that can just erase it and retake it. Mark Miller: They'll never know. Steve Sawczyn: It's so cool that- Mark Miller: Steve, they'll never know what we went through, how hard it was. Steve Sawczyn: They'll never get the horror. Mark Miller: Yeah. Steve Sawczyn: Horror, yeah. Mark Miller: Well, listen, we have to wrap things up, but it was fantastic talking to you. Marissa Sapega: Yeah, thank you so much, Steve. Mark Miller: Really enjoyed it. And since we declared, you're probably a better podcast host than me and we should have had this reversed. Marissa Sapega: Yeah. Mark Miller: If I give you our outro, would you like to do our outro for us? Steve Sawczyn: I could try. Mark Miller: Okay. Steve Sawczyn: And it's been great being here as well. Thank you guys so much for having me and give me the outro and I'll see if I can do. Mark Miller: This is what I would say, Steve, you'll have to flip around the names. I would say, "This is Mark Miller thanking Steve and Marissa and reminding you to keep it accessible." So, you have to flip the names. Steve Sawczyn: Oh Man, flip the names? Mark Miller: You want to hear it again? Steve Sawczyn: This is Steve Sawczyn thanking, yeah, I better hear it again. Mark Miller: You would say thinking Mark and Marissa and reminding you to keep it accessible. Steve Sawczyn: This is Steve Sawczyn thanking Mark and Marissa and was it reminding? Mark Miller: Reminding You to keep it accessible. Steve Sawczyn: Gosh, I'm doing such a great job, my first day as the unofficial. All right. Mark Miller: This was a task. Guys, for real this time. Marissa Sapega: You're hired. Mark Miller: This is Steve Sawczyn, thanking Mark and Marissa, and reminding you to keep it accessible. Marissa Sapega: Awesome. Speaker 1: This podcast has been brought to you by the Paciello Group, the experts in digital accessibility. Stay tuned for more Real People, Real Stories podcasts coming soon.