- Welcome to the "State of Accessibility" podcast from TPGi on LinkedIn live. I am Mark Miller, and this is my co-host, Dr. David Sloan, chief Accessibility Officer for TPGi, Co-author of "What Every Engineer Should Know About Digital Accessibility," a user research specialist and the keeper of specialist knowledge of inclusive user experience design applied to educational technology. - And Mark is the sales director for TPGi, member of W3C Web Accessibility Initiative, Accessible Platform Architecture's working group, Accessibility Maturity Model Task Force. We've gotta make that task force name shorter for next time around, Mark. - We'll work on it, we'll work on something. David, welcome. Thank you for joining me on another podcast here. This is our third, our, our third podcast, and the first two have gone great. And I just love doing this with you. - Yeah, I can't believe, I thought, wow, it was really a month since the last time we did this, and the answer is no, it's not a month because we did it 24th last month, so yeah, it is a short time, but time does fly. Yeah, lots of stuff happened since then. - It's so much fun. We love doing it like, you know, it's great that it came up quick this time. Well, and it's nice too because this is starting to get into the busy season, so I'm really excited to update people and today is a particularly good and special day for doing this podcast because it is World Usability Day. Right, and I, so really, I would love to just start off with you talking about World Usability Day. And particularly like some people may be wondering, some people may not, but why is that an important day in the Accessibility industry? - Yeah, so World Usability Day, I guess it's nice that it's kind of six months apart from Global Accessibility Awareness Day, which is middle of May each year. So here we are, middle of November, World Usability Day, and it's really a day where we can kind of promote the importance of usability and all of the usability as a product quality and all of the approaches that we can take to maximizing the usability and usefulness of the digital products that we are involved in building. So it's 20 years, or this is the 20th one, so it's like 19 years since the first one. - Wow. - Which was, so the first one happened in 2005 as an event organized by the Usability Professionals Association, which has since become the User Experience Professionals Association, UXPA for short. And I looked this up in Wikipedia, as any sort of researcher would start with. - Professional podcaster. - Any professional researcher would do. And there's a really cool thing in the definition of World Usability Day. So yes, it occurs annually to promote the values of usability, usability engineering, user-centered design, universal usability, which we're gonna come back to. And also, and I've bolded this in my notes, every user's responsibility to ask for things that work better. And this is something that right from the beginning when I was, when I was a kid, I didn't really like computers. I wasn't that into technology because so often it, stuff was too hard to use and I thought it was my fault. I thought I was just incompetent at using tech. And a lot of people that, you know, family members, friends, apart from those who were really into programming and doing stuff. - Right. - I thought I just, I just don't get technology. And there are millions and millions of millions of people out there who would feel the same way, I'm sure, not realizing that the reason that we feel incompetent in using technology is because it's not designed with our needs in mind. So this is kind of flipping, almost giving us a responsibility if you use tech, say, make it easy for me to use, I expect it to be usable. I mean, obviously, depending what the technology is, it may be, it may require some specialist knowledge, but in general, if I have the knowledge, if I'm part of the target audience, I should be able to use this without really struggling and making making people aware that the ability is something you should expect rather than feel, well, I've gotta, I've gotta read the manual, or I've gotta go in a training course or do a degree in computing science field able to use this. And I love that. - Yeah, there's, that's, it's a really good point. And I think, you know, we've come a long way, and it always makes me think of, I think it was somewhere in the early two thousands, there was a Saturday Night Live skit about the IT guy, right? And he would, somebody would be having trouble on their computer and the big kind of joke was he'd always go ugh, move, right? And like a person would move and he would sit down and you'd hear him like on the person's keyboard, and he's like, all you had to do is press control F9 and then shift F4, and this is all, you know what I mean? And, but it was a highlight to me that these people who were into technology and wanted to learn shift, you know, control, alt, delete, shift, F9, four, you know, task, you know, all these things, they were, they could do that. And they became these people with specialist knowledge who we're showing you how to do just normal everyday things that you should be able to do. And we're past that, right? Like, we don't, I mean, we're, if I think about now, like I work, I've worked for years at home on my own system, I've not, I've never seen an IT guy, right? Like there's, I'm not calling, they're not telling me to get outta my seat. And back when I was working in the 2000s, and I considered myself kind of a, you know, a tech nerd and I like to use stuff, you know, learn how to learn my technology for sure. But that proverbial, you know, move and somebody getting on my keyboard is happening on a weekly basis. And that's just, you know, that's one scenario. And I also think about it in terms of my mom who's in her 80s, she figures technology out now. So for as long as long as, you know, the distance we still may have to cover is pretty long, I think, you know, to improve usability. But we've come a long way at the same time, if somebody from my mom's generation and my mom even says, I'm not good at this, and then she goes and figures it out, there's gotta be some, you know, some improvement around usability. - For sure. I mean, I think since 2005, information and communication technologies become so much more ubiquitous, especially with the emergence of smartphones and tablets where we're carrying tech around with us. But still, there's, you know, when anytime there's a new version of a piece of software that we might have become familiar with, using at least the stuff we need to know in order to do things we need to do, new version comes along, things have changed, new functionalities appeared, and the what you, the knowledge you had is no longer accurate. You've gotta figure out a new way of doing something. So why did they change things? So there's still this pressure to add more rather than simplify what already exists or preserve whatever already exists. And that makes usability more of a challenge. - Yeah and I don't think we suffer that capability dealt anymore when somebody, when something changes. And what I mean by that is if it's mission critical at work for you, it doesn't matter if you're into technology or not, you're like, I just need to get this done. I don't have time to relearn the system. Or if it's something you do every day, like maybe you're traveling and that, you know, you're like, I just need my plane ticket, right? Like, I can't figure out how to reuse an app or, you know, fill in the blank with a bunch of things that we rely on technology for nowadays. I think that that's where, that's where that's changing is that it is now just that thing that you need to do something with. And even if you do like getting in and figuring something out, those everyday things aren't what you wanna figure out, you wanna get to your bank balance, you wanna get to your plane ticket, you want to get to whatever it is you have to do at work, and you want it to be, you want it to be logical and easy to figure out. - Yeah. - Completely agree. - So I think the fact that this year's theme for World Usability Day is designing for a better world is kind of appropriate given what we've been talking about. You know, tech really needs to exist to make it easier for people to do things, make it more efficient, avoid us wasting time, allow us to do things without making mistakes or requiring specialist knowledge. And this better world is also one that reduces exclusion, which makes it very relevant to digital Accessibility because of the close connection that exists between Accessibility and usability. I mean, ultimately people with disabilities want usable and useful digital products just like anyone else. You know, people with the disabilities need Accessibility, but ultimately it's, well, okay, I can, I can access thing, but can I use it? Is it useful to me? And that's what we're trying to achieve. - I think a simplistic definition of digital Accessibility is usability for people with disabilities. It's really just, it's really usability and we're making sure we're including everyone and maybe even people who need to interact differently than we do, or different than what might be considered to be normative or something like that, considering all different, different groups in the way that they need to access. So it's really not even tied together. It's like, you know, this, Accessibility is part of the whole that is usability in my mind, or should be, should be. That's how we should be thinking of it. - I think that's a good way of looking about it. And ultimately, usability focuses on whether your target audience can interact and use the product with efficiency, effectiveness, and satisfaction as kind of a sort of formal definition that's come from a standard from way back. And that target audience includes people with disabilities. So ultimately, usability is about maximizing use for your target audience. Accessibility, there's aspects of removing barriers that are associated with Accessibility needs. And there's also that always that kind of influence or spector of legal obligations to avoid discrimination because of disability. But even then when I was looking at the European Accessibility Act text and the Accessibility requirements there, and I remembered it from something that Susanna Lawrence said in our session, that enabling EAA requirements that products and services are designed in such a way as to maximize their foreseeable use by persons with disabilities. So didn't really talk about Accessibility so much as maximize use by people with disabilities. So that's what the EAA wants people covered by the, our organizations covered by the act to aim for. - And it's truly a statement of equality, right? Because that's what, if we think about usability, that that's what we're thinking about is, is that statement could be applied to just overall concept of usability. And this is saying, yeah, just same thing. People with disability, same thing. - Yeah. Yep. And if you only think about Accessibility as this kind of separate compliance effort, and then usability is for other people, then your Accessibility efforts are almost futile because a product might be technically just about accessible, but if it's not usable, if it takes somebody using a screen reader forever to listen to all of the extraneous content, the extra information that someone's added in a misguided attempt to try and provide usability, then, you know, you end up almost being counterproductive. So Accessibility and usability both align and then they sit under this overall umbrella of user experience, this kind of broader more subjective experience of interacting with a product and the organization that provided it. What, you know, ultimately we want as positive an experience as possible. - Right. - Again, depending on what the experience is, if it's some sort of a more crit, you know, we often talk about enjoyment, but then I think about the, when you're thinking about, I need information to allow me to understand where the emergency room is in a hospital, in a town I'm not familiar with, I don't want to enjoy that process. I just need the information because- - You just want it to work really, really well. - Because a family member's sick and I need to help them. So we've gotta be careful with what are those words that are associated with user experience, but still user experience is this kind of umbrella thing that connects Accessibility and usability and that that's important for everybody regardless of disability. - Yeah, I mean, those are all really good points. And I think, you know, even if we think about the effort that a lot of larger organizations go through, where they start looking at Accessibility as something they suddenly have to deal with, and it's a project and all that, and, you know, something, a subject that you and I, David, come across together a lot is this shift left, you know, bring the organization. And the bottom line of that is it's, well, you've got a usability practice. Make sure that the Accessibility part of that is also a piece of it because it's really just, it's just usability extended out to its maximum. I dunno what you would say, meaning, you know, so given that, like if, like what do people turn to when they start to think about this usability for people with disabilities that we call Accessibility? Because it is not always what, how people are thinking of it. And it's not always included in how people develop digital products, becoming more and more so, but there's still work to do it. So if you're out there and you're like, well that's great. We do usability, but how does the Accessibility piece blend in? And then what is, what do we start to look at at that point? - Oh, there are so many things and one thing I want to draw people's attention to or remind people of the value of a document that's often focused on in Accessibility efforts, the World Wide Web Consortium's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. We talk a lot about the success criteria. - I've heard of those, I've heard of those before, David. - Oh, I'll tell you about that afterwards. But yeah, WCAG as a reference, we often focus on the success criteria. These are testable criteria to help us figure out if we've met specific Accessibility requirements. But if we step up a level to the guidelines, you would very rarely talk about the guidelines of WCAG. We talk about the success criteria. But when you look at the 13 guidelines in WCAG, several of them, most of them, arguably all of them are about usability. So I'm just gonna read out a few just to, just to illustrate the point, guideline 1.3, adaptable, create content that can be presented in different ways. For example, similar layout or simpler layout without losing information or structure. That sounds like usability. - Yeah. - Provide users enough time to read and use content. Sounds like usability. Make text content readable and understandable. Sounds like usability. Help users avoid and correct mistakes. That sounds very like usability. So even our Accessibility reference is giving us usability advice. - Yeah. That's super interesting. And that's, and this is the place to start, right? And this is a great example of, again, I don't even know if it's the intersection, but how Accessibility is already a part of usability, really, and that it's, how would you write these guidelines any other way other than for them to sound like just usability, right? I mean, it's really like you, you know, you could add four people with disabilities to the end of each one of these, you know, to make it, to make it more clear. But that's not necessary. It's just saying, this is what a usable product looks like. And it doesn't matter who your audience is, this is the experience that they should have. - Yeah and it shows the power of WCAG as a resource to help in the creation of usable digital resources. And this is a point that, and forgive me if I've mentioned this blog post before about Eric Edgar, but I probably will be referring to every podcast 'cause it's so helpful where he talks about this distinction between guidelines and guardrails, where the guidelines help you stay in the middle of the road, keep you away from trouble, head you in the right direction. The guardrails are at the side of the road stopping you from driving your car down a down a steep slope or whatever, keeping you away from trouble. And the success criteria are the guardrails. They're the kind of the difference between accessible and not, but stay in the middle and use the guidelines to keep you headed in the right direction. And it's a really helpful way of looking at the dual purposes of WCAG. - My favorite here is 3.1, make text content readable and understandable. - Yeah. - Of course. - It's kind of, it's almost- - Probably useless to have a website with understand, you know what I mean? But it sounds obvious, but it's a great, like, I guess the analogy you just gave, it's a great reminder to keep you in the center of the road when you're developing. - Yeah. Yep. And that's, you know, that's, again, it's all usability is all in the context of use. You know, it's readable and understandable by the target audience for the intended purpose of the, of the product or service or whatever it is you're building. So if you're designing a decision support tool for a doctor to use in a surgery, you're going to assume that somebody has an advanced level of medical knowledge, but they're still gonna be really busy and stressed because they have a limited amount of time to consult with a patient who may be distressed, who may be, you know, literally in, you know, very sick and unwell and it's almost literally a life or death situation. So making content readable and understandable for somebody, even with that specialist knowledge is still super important. - So if you were to think about this, just thinking through this a little bit, David, because it's almost an awareness thing, right? Somebody who's got usability in air quotes but not Accessibility, it's largely because it's not integrated into the practice, it's not something that has been brought to their attention. Is there a group even within all of that, is there a group that you think is almost like, what would you say is the group that's the most difficult or to kind of consider, or that people tend to miss considering, you know, until it is brought to their attention? - It's a good question because I guess I can answer it in a couple of different ways. There are ways in which people inadvertently make something less usable because of misguided Accessibility efforts. So it might be misunderstanding how a screen reader operates and putting a tab focus in every piece of content on a webpage, because you think that in order to navigate through the webpage, you need to press the Tab key. And actually a screen reader has many other keyboard commands that allow people to jump from heading to heading or paragraph to paragraph or from one form to another, whatever. So you end up making the page less usable by inadvertently adding Accessibility features. So that's one way where people can make a mistake. I guess the other one would be you know, in this broad and diverse area of cognitive Accessibility, where still there's less awareness of the things that people can do to improve Accessibility and cognitive Accessibility addresses specific disabilities that affect the ability to read and process and remember information or focus, pay attention and the ways that you can address those needs can also benefit many other people who might just find it difficult to use an interface and making it clear to understand and support people in making the right decision and recovering when they make the wrong decision. It can, you know, the benefits of cognitive Accessibility affect people with cognitive disabilities and so often lots and lots of other people. So the more that we pay attention to that, then the more usable the interface that we can have. And you know, the sort of issues are something might be, it might cause some friction for some people and then for somebody else, it's an, almost an insurmountable barrier that they just give hope. - I think that's a really, I'm glad you brought that up, and largely because this is the area that I fall into, right? And I think it's because I'm dyslexic and have ADD but I think it's very difficult, it's really difficult for people to understand because we throw, you know, we have this general category of cognitive disabilities, however, how you accommodate, you know, the variety of ways that, you know, people may be affected because of their cognitive disabilities is unbelievable. It's not as straightforward as vision or hearing, you know, if you can't hear, you need text equivalent or you need some other way to convey information other than sound and if you do that, you're probably in pretty good shape and that user's gonna experience that in the right way. Or if you have a vision disability, you either need magnification or you need things to be spoken, right? So it's kind of, you know, I don't want in any way to paint the picture of that stuff being simplistic, but when with neurodiversity or cognitive disabilities, that spectrum is so, so long that something that may help me may not even begin to be what somebody else needs. And I love your, I love the way that you, you put that, right, blending the cognitive Accessibility with usability in your example. Because one of the things I think about, this is how I would relate that to me, David, is that in order for me to operate well in my workday, I need spell check, period, right? I still have anxiety handwriting things because of when I was a kid and I would write on the board and spell words and how that would be, so spell check for me, writing email and stuff. It's like, it's incredibly necessary, but it's a part of usability for everybody because while my spelling may be really not very good because of my dyslexia, everybody could, everybody's gonna misspell a word, right? And that spell check helps everybody. So I, you know, I know that's not quite usability, but just in that, in that assistive technology that everybody uses, it is an example where something that is absolutely critical for me is really, really nice for the whole anybody that's writing, doing writing papers and doing business and all those kind of things. So I think it's a really good and a really good area to really show that intersection between usability and Accessibility. - Yeah, I love the fact that you brought up assistive technology, 'cause again, we're talking about a spectrum of user needs and that impact when those user needs are not met and people with cognitive, certain cognitive disabilities might encounter a barrier that prevents access. And for others, it might be a barrier that's noticed and is a bit of a roadblock, causes some friction, but with persistence or maybe on the right day or the wind's blowing in the right direction, yeah, I can overcome that, that's okay. Or it's a, maybe it's a minor thing, but for some people it's a barrier that stops use and then assistive technology that could help somebody overcome a barrier, and it might be something like auto complete or some way to help somebody make a decision or provide clarification. You know, maybe it's, you know, here's some choices, but here's an opportunity to access a definition or a glossary to explain terms. And a choice that allows me to decide which to choose from. Or the fact that I make a choice and I go to a point, I know I can reverse my decision. Just that ability to undo a critical decision, you know, that there's a requirement for that in WCAG and that helps people recover from errors. But it also might be the difference between somebody deciding to progress rather than saying, I just don't even want to go any further. I am so concerned that if I make this decision, it's irreversible and I've lost out financially or I've made a, you know, legal commitment that I wasn't sure about. So again, that kind of- - Which I do all the- - Any support you can provide. - Yeah, and I do that all the time. I mean, you're not talking about something, it's, that's I all the time go, nope, not taking the next step or this is already more trouble than it's worth. I'm moving on to something else. And that's probably without, you know, that's gotta be doubled down and forced, who's experiencing a barrier because they have, you know, they're using assistive technology or something like that. - Right. - So- - And then there's a kind of flip side of that. And I know our colleague Dave Swallows worked a lot on exploring anxiety and handling anxiety and stress in UX design. And there've been some really good examples from financial institutions that are, you know, recognizing that some people, maybe with bipolar disorder, people with depression or other mental health conditions that might, you know, maybe late at night make a high value purchase using their credit card. And that's something that they might wake up in the morning and think, I didn't want to do that. I didn't, I shouldn't have done that. And their banks will hold the charge rather than, because it happened in the middle of the night, the banks, you know, are you sure you want to make this charge? We've not processed the payment. Just wanted to double check. So it's a way, and it's not necessarily something that's required by Accessibility standards, but it's a really sensitive way to addressing specific needs and accommodating those and enhancing usability as a way to recover from a decision that maybe somebody made in the spur of the moment and later on would come to the regret. - Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm, and you know, I don't have a lot of anxiety, but I imagine that there's people that do when it comes to these things and I think about, you know, what you're talking about, like banking and financial purchases. And I mean, even just, you know, if you think about online banking and looking at your account and how important something like that is, you know, that's your life savings or your nest egg or your paycheck or your, and if you are uncertain with something that important, that, I mean, it can cause a level of anxiety for anybody, but if you have a cognitive, you know, propensity towards that anxiety, that's gonna be even worse. I mean, I've always just dealt with stuff with, nope. Like that movie, nope. Like, that's me on, you know, using technology. Like I hit points and just go, nope. - Yeah. - And that may mean nope, I'm calling a, I'm calling a person, you've made this too confusing, too difficult. I'm just gonna call somebody. Oh, you know, we'd like to remind you it's easier and twice as fast on our website. Nope, I tried that and you confused me and I'm out, right? - Yeah. - I had, my healthcare provider just the other day, I had tried to make a request over the portal and use the portal like everybody wants it to. And somebody on the phone said, yeah, our portal doesn't work very well. We don't like the way it works. It's really difficult for people to use and it's going to be replaced. But there you go, right? Like, that's usability in a nutshell. This was so difficult and caused so many problems and so much confusion and I did this and it didn't, and it didn't gimme a confirmation. Like I had no idea, like it was really poor. And I think that's to your point, reeling it all the way back to the front of the conversation. That's the kind of thing that if we're wondering what is this day for and what kind of, what needs to be improved, well, there you go, right? If I make a request on my healthcare portal, please, you know, confirm it, let me know, gimme some informa, how long will this take to fulfill, you know, whatever there's, it can't go into a void. and that's, you know, that's just the beginning of it. So I think that you're, you know, you're absolutely, and that causes a amount of distress 'cause I thought something happened that didn't happen. And again, if I had a propensity towards anxiety or confusion or whatever, like, you know, everybody processes and experiences things differently that can turn into something that's incredibly difficult for- - Yeah. - Lots of- - Yeah, so before I forget, I need to give a shout out to the Making Content Usable resource. And we talked a lot about, you know, this overlap between Accessibility for cognitive Accessibility needs and usability and the W3C resource making content usable. So it's w3.org/TR/coga C-O-G-A, -usable is a really good resource with some usability focused recommendations that if followed will help to make it easier for people with a variety of cognitive Accessibility needs to use digital products. So definitely recommend people reference that in design and development. - Oh, that's a really good call out. That's a really good call out, 'cause because that's the other thing is, you know, it's great that we're sitting here talking about this David, but people need resources to- - Yeah. - Get to the next level. And on that, on that same note, you know, I always think about this in terms of, you know, when we think about usability, it's not just a mental exercise where you go, I'm gonna make this work better. You actually have to, you have to pull your audience, right? You have to do some testing and you have to say, hey, I tried to make this better. Let's see how it works. So that testing piece is so important. Can you just talk a little bit about testing in this context as well? - Absolutely can, and probably I could talk for the rest of the day about user research more broadly. It's a subject close to my heart. - I'm gonna go get a coffee then. - Yeah, get yourself, get your dinner and bring it back. I'm gonna be here all day. - Call in a pizza. - Yeah, no, this is something- - If the app usable, I'll call in a pizza. If not, we're in trouble. - Exactly. Yeah, do some testing with it. Yeah, you can do all of the standards-based conformance testing that you're able to do. But the true judge of whether somebody can use a product is watching them try to use the product for its intended purpose and noting where they have difficulties. But even before that, I mean, we talk a lot about involving users in testing, but better is to start by talking to users about needs before you start building the product. Understand and people- - Requirements. - Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's like figuring out from your user's perspective, including people with disabilities, how do you currently perform these tasks? If you have an existing website or app, watch them use the current one to figure out where you need to make improvements for a new one. If you haven't built anything, then, you know, figuring out how do people address, approach the task, what are the biggest pain points? What are the things that are kind of, nah, that's not really a problem yet. It happens, but I get over it. I that that's not a priority for me as something you need to fix. And then ideally, participatory design. So you're involving users, including people with disabilities throughout the design and development process. So they're almost partners in the process. But you know, even if all of the, the only involvement with users that you have is at the end when you're doing usability evaluation, it's still better than doing nothing. And even one person is better than none as long as you know that that is one person as opposed to somebody who's representative of every person who presents with the same disability or the same profile but absolutely involving people and observing, you know, instead of saying, what do you think of this? Or, okay, I'd like you to perform this task, I'm gonna observe you doing it and then ask you some questions about what you did afterwards. It's still a great way to get really rich information about what to fix, you know, what you need to fix and what priority to associate with the fixes that are needed, yeah. - Yeah, and I think that I like your point about coming in at the requirements phase. It seems like that sort of like gets you halfway down the road so you only have like half the distance to travel once you come in and actually say, okay, now I've created this, how's it going now, let me watch you use it now, instead of being so far behind, you know? Having so much work to do once you've built it out and once you have people tested and then you realize, oh wow man, we really missed the mark here. - Yeah. - And I would imagine that there's an ROI associated with that too. Like that doing it in requirements phase just seems like it would be such an important thing to do. The more you can take care of there, just the much easier it's gonna be. - Yeah, it helps you understand the problem space without assumptions that you haven't tested and it avoids you investing and solving the wrong problems or involving or maybe solving the right problems, but in the wrong way. And, you know, we know that a lot of organizations find it really difficult to get the user perspective upfront, but if anyone is out there doing some upfront user research, including people with disabilities in that helps you get that perspective from a, you get that Accessibility angle, but you're also, you know, you're including, these are more people who are potentially users of your product and can be advocates for your product if it's designed with their needs in mind. So, you know, I really believe in the value of, of doing upfront research and then yeah, it ideally through, as long as those needs are preserved and prioritized through design development process, when it comes to evaluating, you're kind of verifying that your efforts were effective rather than discovering that your efforts were misguided and related problems. - So you're making me think like, if we go back to the earlier part of our conversation where we were talking about being used to using something in a certain way, and then when it changes, if it's, if the usability's not great, it could take us a long time to learn how to use it again. And kind of the how difficult that is. What, when you're doing, when you're doing usability studies, how much is that phenomenon of factor? So in other words, if somebody really is used to doing something in a certain way, could that bias, that usability output, either because they're extra frustrated 'cause it doesn't work the way they're used to, in air quotes, or they go, oh no, this works great for me because they're already used to that flow for whatever reason. - Yeah. - Like is that a consideration or is that, am I- - I think it, I think it should be, I think this, because we provide usability consultancy, we tend to get brought into evaluate a product that we haven't, we are not familiar with because it's a client product and their participants haven't used it before. So they're, unless we've intentionally recruited people who are regular users of the product, but in most cases it's people who are unfamiliar with the product. So- - Some fresh eyes. - So they're, they tend to be fresh perspectives and I think we'd want to try and tease out, you know, discussing behaviors or discussing especially where somebody went wrong or if somebody had no problems, you know, can you explain why you found it so straightforward? And if they said, well, yeah, I'm used, this is what I would always do when I was trying to order a pizza or whatever it is I'm doing, so. - I got you thinking about pizza. - I know, I know. I'm hungry already. So yeah, figuring out your learning about sort of learned behaviors and using prior experiences is a really good way to sort of explore if somebody didn't have a problem, was it because we're following an established pattern and that's a good thing, let's keep doing that. Or we deviated from a common pattern and that's why somebody got into difficulty. - Interesting, well, we're getting to the point where we have to wrap things up. We did it again. - Yep. - Dr. Sloan, another "State of Accessibility" podcast successful. Anything, any last minute thoughts or anything that you, that we, anything we may have, should have said that we haven't said up to this point? - No, I think, I think just the overall rallying cry that on World Usability Day, Accessibility is nothing without usability and people with disabilities want usable products just like everyone else. So let's not separate the two. Even though organizationally, Accessibility might be handled in legal compliance or DEIA, it's all part of the goal to make usable and useful products to everyone. So let's treat it as as a single focus and a single goal. - Well said. Great way to wrap things up and happy World Usability Day. Now you know the state of Accessibility. I am Mark Miller, thanking David Sloan and reminding you that the state of Accessibility is always changing, so please help us affect change. - Thanks, Mark. Thanks everyone.