- Welcome to "The State of Accessibility Podcast" from TPGi on LinkedIn Live. I am Mark Miller, sales director for TPGi and member of W3C's and Web Accessibility Initiative Accessibility Maturity Model Task Force. Dave has a hard time saying that every time, and now so do I. And Dr. David Sloan is not joining me today, as he is traveling, but we have brought a very special guest today for GAAD, Elizabeth Holdsworth, assistive technology engineer here at TPGi. And speaking of traveling, Isabel took a very special trip to Antarctica, which is what we're here to talk about today. Welcome, Isabel. - Hello. How you doing? - I'm doing... It's GAAD. It's GAAD. I always wanna say it's GAAD- - It's GAAD. Whoo! - Redundant. It's GAAD. I'm doing great. How are you? - Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. Thank God for GAAD. - And I'm really happy to be talking to you today because GAAD, as everybody probably knows, stands for Global Accessibility Awareness Day, and you've got a wonderful story about traveling as a person who's blind to Antarctica, and for me, this is just a great moment for that second A in GAAD, awareness, like, to really help people who aren't blind, like myself, understand how you would do that, you know, the things that... the accommodations you make, how, you know, things that are difficult, challenges that you overcome, and most importantly, you know, how you go about maybe enjoying something like that that's different than the experience other people would have. So let's dive in. Why did you decide to go to Antarctica? I've decided not to do that. Why did you decide? - Yeah, just because... So I'm quite a traveler anyway. So in 2010, 2011, I took a year off. I went backpacking around the world with someone else who is legally blind, but has a little bit of sight. So we had visited six of the continents and I always thought, oh, it's a shame I'm never gonna be able to visit the seventh one, but it's just too difficult. And then I was... I had a friend staying last year, she's blind and it was a big birthday for her this year, and I said, "Oh, are we all going gonna have a party then?" and she said, "No, I don't think I'll be able to get to do what I wanna do. I'd really love to visit Antarctica." And I'm like, "Me too." And we're like, "Should we go?" And we just decided to go. - So for you it was like the last tick mark on the list of continents and for her it is sort of a bucket list thing as well that she would accomplish at this milestone. Well, that's fantastic. And so this is getting really interesting because we've got two people here that are blind and I'm sure for you, thinking about traveling and going to Antarctica, you're like, yeah, it's just, you know, like anybody else, right? I'm just gonna go travel but I think for us with sight, it's really difficult to imagine how that would work. So can you just talk a little bit about the trip and how you as a person who's blind with another person who's blind, sort of goes about planning, executing. Like what are the things that you have to think about that may be unique? - Okay, so the biggest thing was if we go on a science cruise, which was what we wanted to do, how many of the expeditions would we be able to get involved in? And would they be a bit hesitant because we're blind and all that kind of stuff? So my friend's very good at this. She phoned around a lot of cruise lines and we found one that was, "Hmm, more accommodating than the rest," but still a bit like, "Oh, well let's go there and see how much you can do." So we were a bit in the dark about what we're gonna be able to do when we got there. And strangely, everyone has to have a fitness for travel, medical screening if they're gonna go somewhere like that. Well, you're a few days away from civilization, really and if anything bad happens, you know, you have to be ready for it. So the doctor who was screening me, she said, "Why do you wanna go there? You're blind, you're not gonna see anything" She's like, I've been there and, you know, everything was visual." And I said, "But I'm gonna experience things in a whole different way." And I wasn't even sure myself what it was gonna be like, but yeah, it was so worth going. - But isn't that part of the adventure, right? Like, no matter who you are, you're not sure what it's gonna be like and that's- - No - Why you want to go do it. - Yeah. Yeah. - And I find that an interesting comment, you know, since there are five senses, you've sort of got four left to- - Absolutely. - [Mark] , right? - Yeah. The smell of penguins is quite a big one. - I don't know if you know this, but on social media, everybody follows, listeners are gonna make fun of me for not remembering what my . But there's the penguin and the baby penguin that was bigger than its parents like by, I can't remember who it is, but the penguins are a big deal right now and- - Yeah - What the heck do they smell like? - Not pretty - [Mark] Not pretty. - You don't wanna eat shortly after you've been around a bunch of penguins for a while. Not pretty at all. - So we've got pink roses and then the opposite of that. - Yeah. Yep. - Okay. All right. Those stinky penguins. - Yeah, but all the... You know, jumping ahead. So once we got there, we landed on a few islands and on the mainland once and every time there was like thousands of penguins trying to bite around your boots and kind of scrambling around you trying to get your attention. We weren't allowed to touch 'em, which is really sad. I would've loved to just take a glove off and have a little stroke up one but- - But they nipping at your feet, so you kind of- - Oh yeah. Yeah, they're trying to pull your bootlace and things. - They didn't get the memo that- - No, no. No, we were told to stay five meters away and they weren't having any of that. - And they weren't the- Yeah, the penguins didn't listen. Okay - No. But that made it - They were stinky and they don't listen well. Got it. - But the trip getting there, so there were a few small issues. So what I decided to bring my sister, I thought my sister was going to be really helpful, and she was a lot of the time, but unfortunately she got sick on the way there. So we did things like... I've got a pair of Meta AI glasses. So you can take pictures on these glasses and ask them about your surroundings and things so going around the airport, me and my sister wasn't feeling very well, so me and my friend we went scooting around the airport picking up last minute, you know, pills and sleeping pills and mints for the plane and that kind of thing. - Sure. - And the glasses were able to help us find the shops that we were looking for and find a way back and things. - Oh, that's brilliant. - So that was pretty useful. - Yep. - The first issue that we found was when we got to the airport in London, we were trying to check in and it was a flat screen, it was a kiosk. And my friend hadn't met up with us yet and there was no way she could use it. And I was thinking, you know, all this is driven by websites these days, just make it talk. It's so easy to make it talk. So my sister had to kind of do that for us. - Yeah and not to turn this into a commercial, but a large part of what we do here at TPGi and we have the jaws for kiosk product, which is specific for exactly the experience you're talking about. It's to make sure your flat screen not just talk, but effectively relay the visual UX to a person who needs to hear that UX. - I've never played with this yet and I now I want it to be everywhere. - We want it to be everywhere as well. - So that was the first issue really. And the same thing when we got on the plane, there was a TV and there was like a 100 and something different channels. Tons of different channels with loads of movies and things. And again, I couldn't use it. And my sister put a movie on for me and it went off and she'd fallen asleep and, of course, I didn't wanna wake her up so I had to kind of skip it. And things like that are quite frustrating. - I think, you know, speaking of the awareness part of Global Accessibility Awareness Day, I think that you bring up a good point. A lot of people that I talk to will go like, "Well, can't somebody just help them?" Right? In reference to fill in the blank, right? But it's about privacy. It's about all sorts of things. - [Isabel] Absolutely. - But also just things like that, like the person helping... The person that can help you is falling asleep and you don't wanna wake 'em up. And there's- - No, they've got- - It's a bunch of- - It's their trip too. Yeah. - Yeah. I think it's- - So anyway- - [Mark] . - It is. So it took us four-and-a-half days to get to Antarctica so it took us two days to get from London to Argentina, and then two-and-a-half days down the... Oh, what's it called? The Drake Passage. So that's where the Atlantic and the Pacific kind of bang up against each other and there's huge waves and things. So my sister was seasick the whole time. And so my friend and I had to come- - You're in a boat when you're going through that path. - [Isabel] Yeah - Okay - [Isabel] Yeah - And it's particularly like wavy because the- - Oh my goodness. Yeah, the waves are like six meters high and the ship is crashing around and you're kind of falling between one corridor and the other one. One side of, you know, the corridor. - If you're blind, you want like physical experiences. Excuse me, that's... You get a little too punch. - Yeah. That's pushing it. And also we're trying to learn our way around the ship at this point as well. - Yeah. - 'Cause my sister was stuck in the cabin, so we were bringing her, you know, food and things. So yeah, that was quite interesting. I was obviously wasn't pleased that my sister was ill, but I was pleased to be pushed out of my comfort zone. - Yeah. - And not be relying on her to kind of, you know, guide us around the ship the whole time. - That's true. - The adventure really started there. - Do you mind just quickly, how did you... Like what were the things that you did to get around the ship? - We worked out that the stairs and the elevators were on the same place all the time. You know, well, they have to be, don't they? 'Cause they're getting you from floor to floor but... So they were in the middle of the ship and we worked out the restaurants were at the back, our room was at the front. So we were kind of locating ourselves by what, you know, the back and the front of the ship and people get used to... We would go to science lectures every day and people would get used to us kind of blundering in there and trying to sit on the same seat. So they would scaper. So they eventually started leaving us those seats all the time and that was great. - That's nice. So you really, in your head, you created a bit of a map of the ship. - Yeah - That at least could get you into general areas. - Yeah. - And then you would work on the specifics of, this is the room I want or... I'm sure you must count doorways and- - Oh yeah, I count things all the time. - [Mark] Okay. - Yeah. Doorways and corners and different things. I don't count steps. People think that blind people count steps, maybe some do, I don't. I haven't got that good a memory. - Yeah, that sounds like you. That would change depending on how- - Yeah. - [Mark] Quick you're walking. - But there were a little... Yeah, depending on how many times you've fallen between one wall and the other one with the ship crashing around. So there were- - Just, before we go on, I wanna say like, the way you describe that, Isabel, is like, if I described how I get used to an environment like a ship, it's really... Obviously I'm using sight to do it, but it's really not that different. It's really a matter of- - [Isabel] No. - Being like, okay, these things are on this floor, I understand the front of the ship kind of contains these things. - Yeah. - You know, the stern might have these things or wherever I am, you know. So that's really interesting that it's a very similar process, just... - I think it really is. In my head if I'm walking around somewhere new in my head I've got a pencil and a piece of paper and I'm drawing a map in there. - Oh really? - [Isabel] Yeah. - That is fascinating. I don't know that I do that, but I definitely end up with it. - I do because I wanna refer back to it later on, so. - Do you have a little filing cabinet in your head too? - I think I must have. - Like Antarctic trip, my first trip, big waves. - That's just how I work. But there were little accessibility quirks because the lifts, the elevators had brail on them, but they didn't speak once you were inside, so you didn't know quite which floor you were getting out on. So you would just hope that nobody had pressed a button in between floors. - Got it. - Because there was 11 floors on the ship and we were on floor five and one of the outside decks was on number 11. So you didn't really wanna be running up and down six floors all the time. - Yeah. So would you just sometimes mess up or did you find a way to figure that out or which floor you were on? - If it was less, if it was like three floors we would just walk up or down and if it was more, we would just hope somebody was getting in there and we would ask them. - Okay, that makes sense. - Yeah. And then there were things like the restaurants were buffet. So in the beginning we had to, you know, ask staff if they could help us find a table and then help us get some food and by the end they were so lovely. They were just coming up to us straight away and they knew what kind of food we'd want by the end of it and stuff. Oh, they were brilliant. - That's fantastic. So people, I would imagine you... You know, I think sometimes, because you hear a lot of people who are blind sort of talk about these things and sometimes it is an opportunity to see the best of humanity, you know? - Absolutely. Yeah. - And it doesn't just have to be people who are blind, but anytime anybody needs some help, it really sounds like people are, not only are they willing to kick in, but they kind of like think forward and they go- - Yeah. - I think I know how to do this better or whatever. So that's really nice to hear. - So we didn't realize that... So I would always have scrambled egg at breakfast time. We didn't realize that some of the staff were gonna be manning the little zodiac inflatable boats that we would go out cruising on. And somebody was helping me into one of those boats and he said, "Scrambled egg madam." And I'm like... - I love it. - And that was another thing, so- - Those are just people that are good at their job, right? - Oh yeah, absolutely. - Lot of people make people feel welcome and entertain throughout the day. - Yeah. Yep - So your name, like the trip here on out is now "Scrambled eggs". - Yeah. The biggest thing that I thought I was gonna need my sister there for was getting in and out of these little inflatable boats. Because every day while we're... We were only in Antarctica for five days. And every day they would take us out cruising on one of these boats to try and find whales or seals or penguins. And every day they would try and land us on an island or even on the mainland. That didn't work out every day because of the weather. - Right. - But I was worried about how am I gonna... 'Cause these little boats are gonna be moving around in the sea. How am I gonna know when to step across and, you know, how it works. - [Mark] Yeah. - Especially if the staff don't know English. So I was really concerned about this. But the first day I went down, my sister wasn't well enough to come She was still seasick. And I kind of got it wrong a little bit 'cause they didn't know how to explain it, you know, when to step across. I kind of slipped a little bit, I didn't like fall or hurt myself or anything but it woke them up and they started being a lot more descriptive about where to put your feet and things and they were actually amazing. And, you know, my sister didn't need to help us with that kind of stuff. 'Cause actually everyone needed help. - Well, and I wonder if that was an opportunity for them to sort of expand themselves in terms of- - I think so. - You know, like they they had to rise to that challenge and they learned. - [Isabel] Yeah - Maybe today they explained it slightly different to everyone. - Yeah. And there was one particular driver who tried to have us on his boat because he wanted to describe things to us. He was amazing actually. We went out whale searching one time and we were the only... There were 16 little boats, and we were the only ones that found whales. So that was really exciting. And one of them was right beside our boat and you could have reached out and touched him if you were allowed, which, of course, we weren't. - Right. But good rule. - Oh, but I so would have loved to touch it. - You don't wanna end up in the ocean. You definitely don't want to end up in the ocean on top of a whale. - No. But they were only humpback whales. So, you know, there were gentle big things. And he was showing off, and he was like swimming around a boat and blowing through his big blowhole and flipping his tail. And all lots of things that I could hear if the engine of the boat would only be switched off, which they weren't allowed to do. Because it would alert the animals that we were there. You know, they wanted the animals to know that we were there. But he said, "I'll turn it off for five minutes so you can hear everything." And you could. Man, I could hear the tail flapping on the water and the whale blowing and another one under the water singing and the penguins chirping away as they swam after these whales around a ship and- - That's okay. - That was just breathtaking. It really was. - And just by the way you're describing it, I'm gonna guess the answer to my question is yes. But you know, you kind of described the map that you draw of the ship, right? - [Isabel] Yes. - When you hear the whale making all these sounds and moving around and all this stuff, does that sort of form an image, and I'm using image, and that may be the wrong word, but a impression maybe the right word- - [Isabel] Yeah. - Of that creature and its size and how- - Yeah. Yeah, I don't think... Sorry, I've got a scratchy eye. I don't think it's easy for a blind person to kind of imagine the enormity of a whale. 'Cause I know he's absolutely massive. - And the sounds did or didn't really give you a sense of that? Or is it- - I don't really think so because, you know, we were in the water, there was a lot of kind of echo and a lot of penguin noise and... No, I don't think I've got an impression. - They're noisy. They don't follow rules, they don't smell good. - Don't. - We're learning a lot about penguins. - But they're good fun. You know, we were- - It does sound like fun. Generally lack of rule following equals fun, right? - Yeah. We were sat, my sister was watching them and she was describing them and the mothers would... The parents were teaching the babies to climb up this glassier and the babies kept tumbling down and the parents would go back and get them and it seemed like they were all having a great lot of fun together. - That's incredible. - [Isabel] Yeah. - Yeah. So you've got... You know, you're experiencing the whales. Was there anything that you did ahead of time... Like, maybe it's not even important to you, right? But like do they have like 3D models or anything like that? Like what is your sense of like what a whale... That structure of a whale is in the first place? - I kind of had like toy whales and, you know- - [Mark] Okay. - Plush whales and things. So I know what shape he is, but just the size of them is quite- - That's . Yeah. - But they showed me a set of teeth belonging to one on the ship and it was absolutely enormous. - Yeah. - I was like, if that's only his teeth, what's the rest of them like? - Yeah. Is there analogies that help you? Like if they say like a whale is like, you know, the size of a bus or two buses in a row? - Yeah, that would help. - Yeah, that would help. Because you must have a sense. Just like you have of how large the ship you're on is because you've- - Yeah. - [Mark] Navigated. - Yeah. Because I've walked along the road past buses and things, you know, stationary buses and things so I would have... And, you know, I've been on enough of them to know how big they are. Yeah, that would be really helpful actually. Yep. - And, you know, just thinking as a sighted person, like, you know, of what you're describing and sort of the enjoyment and the excited conversations that might follow. You know, there'd be a lot of, "Did you see." What is the... Like you obviously had the same... To me it seems like you had the same experience, like just that- - It was very similar. - Excitement, joy, and even though you couldn't see it through the sounds and and whatever else and people helping describe it, it seems like the impact and- - Yeah - The value of that novelty and the trip is the same. Is that true? And what kind of like... You know, what is that like for you? What are those like after conversations and stuff between two folks who are blind, you know, what do they sound like? - I think they were pretty similar. You know how you're like, "Oh my goodness, wasn't that awesome?" - Yeah, yeah. - And getting very excited. I think the best one for me and the most similar one to seeing something was coming through the Drake Passage and at night you could hear icebergs cracking in half and I would think... And I said to somebody, "That sounds like a firework," somebody on the ship, one of the staff, and I said, "It sounds like fireworks. What is it?" And he said, "Listen carefully 'cause you'll hear it echoing." He said it's where icebergs get too much air in the top of them and then they flip over and then to get rid of the air they crack and it's the icebergs cracking. And you could hear the echo of the cracking bouncing through the glassier and things. So that was quite a breathtaking as well. - And I would imagine that's a moment in which everybody on the ship is experiencing that in the same way because it's the middle of the night. - Yeah. - They're probably not seeing the icebergs flip. - [Isabel] Yeah. - You know. So that's kind of a moment where everything sort of equalizes a little bit. - Yeah. - The way the experience happens. Was that a scary, like nervous- - No. - Thing or just cool? - We talked about this later and we thought that some of the stuff should have been scary especially the whale right beside our little flimsy inflatable. We should have been frightened of that, especially when he went underneath 'cause he could have decided to come up a bit early. And we were too like- - Excited. - Like wow even to think of being afraid. - The other interesting thing about that story for me just thinking, I'm always thinking in terms of like accommodations and accessibility given the business that you and I are in. And I never really thought about like the sound of the boat being disruptive, like an accommodation or a better experiences that if that sound can be eliminated or isolated. There is- - That driver who I don't think had ever, you know, been in close contact with a blind person that was just intuitive for him. - Do you find that people who experience or come in close contact with a blind person for the first time? Like, is there often an element of kind of, I don't know, excitement for them as well to- - Excitement and fear. - Somebody might sort of experience the world differently? - Fear of getting something wrong is the biggest thing, I think. I think that's why they didn't know how to help 'cause they were frightened of getting it wrong at the beginning. And as soon as they worked out that, you know, even if they did get it wrong, we're gonna laugh about it anyway. Don't worry about it. They were fine. They were just helping. - Is there anything you convey to folks like that when you're on a trip to help them become more comfortable more quickly? - I think just showing them early that you've got a sense of humor and- - Yeah - That you're just another human being. - Yeah. - And they don't need to worry. - That's great. And I find that's the case, like with a lot of my friends who are blind, like they don't care if you... I remember, I'll tell you this story real quick. I don't wanna... We only have a few minutes and stories are better. But I'm walking with a friend of mine, and again, I'm around people who are blind all the time and a friend of mine who's blind was also there and my friend was like, "Oh, I see what you're saying" and he started doing a lot of that kind of stuff and he started apologizing for it. My friend- - Oh goodness, yeah. - But you cut it out. Like, you're kind of like, "I said that too, like, don't worry about it." And then the jokes about being blind and there was horses and the gentleman who was blind was using a cane. So there was some jokes that flew around about what might happen between the horse and the cane and stuff like that. - Yeah. - [Mark] So it was the same- - I think as long as you're comfortable with, you know, having those jokes made. As long as they know, you know, that they're not at your expense, you know, that's fine. - And I think humor is a way to dispel discomfort. - Me too. Big time. - That's one of the main purposes of it so I think it's a great technique. Well, we only have a few minutes left. Is there anything else about this trip that you think everybody should hear before we part ways? - Oh, I don't think so. Just how awesome it was and just how much... There were frustrations, you know. I really wanted to be able to see these things. I wanted to watch the penguins going up the hill. When I was climbing up a snowy mountain, I wanted to see the view from the top. All that stuff. - Right. - But you can't. So just grab whatever you can from it. - Yeah. I think that you need to figure out where you could go interact with people. - Space. Space. - Oh well, space. - If somebody wants to take me to space. - No, I was just thinking in terms of the penguins, like if there was a place, like a discovery center that you could go to and actually like have one in your- - I have actually touched one. I held one at London Zoo and it threw up all over me, and that doesn't smell good either. - you don't want that anymore. - No. Been there, done that. No. - Been there, done that. So you want to go to space next? That's your next- - [Isabel] Yeah. - Yeah, this should have - - A little plug. If anybody wants to take a blind person to space, I'm up for it. - Alright, we'll hopefully NASA's listening or SpaceX, somebody. We'll forward the... They might be crazy today, so we'll make sure we forward this to them. Well, Isabel, you're such a delight to talk to. It was so much fun. - Oh no, this was good fun. - My sense of humor started right away so when that was your answer, I'm like, I bet she's got everybody laughing and I really appreciate it. - Oh no, thank you. It's been really good fun. - Yeah and happy GAAD. - Yay - To you and to everyone listening. - Yeah, happy GAAD. - We all have lots of events. We're doing another one at... I'm doing another one at 12:00 with a woman from T-Rowe Price talking about entrepreneurialship. I have to say the word entrepreneurial first. So lots of great things going on today and I'm so glad that you could be a part of this with me- - Yeah, me too. - To celebrate. Alright, thank you. This is Mark Miller Now, you know "The State of Accessibility" I am Mark Miller, thanking Isabel and reminding you that "The State of Accessibility" is always changing, so please help us affect change.