- Welcome to TPGi's "Real People, Real Stories" podcast, where you'll find interesting and diverse stories from folks working to make the world a more inclusive place. Hey, welcome to "Real People, Real Stories" podcast, brought to you by TPGi. I'm your host, Mark Miller, thanking you for helping us keep it accessible. Do us a favor, if you're enjoying the "Real People, Real Stories" podcast, share it, tell someone about it, even link to it from your accessible website. So welcome, everybody. Thank you for joining us. We've got a really fun show, I think, ahead here. I want to first introduce Dara, my co-host. And she found a really, really fun person for us to talk to today. So I'd like to welcome Christina King to the podcast. Hi, Christina, how are you? - I'm great. - You're great. Perfect. - I'm great. - So that's good. It's good to establish that we're all great. The first thing I wanted... Can you just, you kind of have this, I'm just gonna call it like a really fun idea for fundraising that you came up with, and I think that that's what Dara, is the reason she reached out to you because it was just so quirky and cool and fun and all that. Can you tell us a little bit about why you're trying to raise funds, and then the way that you do it, this really fun way that you do it? - Yeah, absolutely. So I had met Rachel Mackenzlee, I think it was probably a little over two years ago. - Mm-hmm. - And she'd come to me from another ocularist, and usually when you're with an ocularist you're kind of like married to them, 'cause you develop like this amazing bond with them. You share their story, their life. And so, she was really nerve wrecked to leave her ocularist. And especially for someone who's, like, younger and maybe not as, like, knowledgeable, she wasn't sure. And so, she came to me and we made an eye. She was amazing, 'cause I had someone running late that day and they actually, she waited like three hours 'cause the person was three hours late. - Mm-hmm. - Go figure. So she hung around, and after we met and I made her an eye, she said she was, like, from "One-Eyed and Wonderful." And I said, "Oh my gosh, didn't you have blonde hair?" And we're just kinda like discussing all this stuff, and we had all these common interests. I'm into plants and, like, tattoos, and all sorts of stuff. And she kind of had the same interests. So we kept talking and she said, "You know, I'd really like, like, a fun eye." But she's like, "I'm nervous." She wanted like a gold iris. So I literally got, like, 24 caret gold flakes and I laid it out, and I made her her first gold eye. I just made it 'cause I didn't know if I should be charging or what. I just was like, "This could be really cool to just see in someone's socket." And I'm, like, here for that. And she got it, and she kind of was like, "I wish I went, like, full gold." Or, "I wish I, like, did something bigger." So we started developing all these different eyes and designs and, like, really getting into it. And eventually, it's obviously caught on with social media, people are seeing her post, which leads them back to me, and which led to this little girl, Gracie, last, I want to say last summer. And she wanted an eye. And at that time I think I was charging like, I don't know, like 300 or something. Way under rate. 'Cause most eyes, well let's talk about price. They're usually like, I don't know, four grand to I've heard as much as 10,000. I think ours, through insurance, are like between 5 and 6,000. The insurance does not always pay that, but that's what we charge. And, of course, I always have cash prices for people who just can't afford it. I am like a bleeding heart, so I can't help it. But she decided to do this fundraiser for like, she was like, "I don't know, maybe we could help raise money for this little girl named Gracie." And we did. And within the first hour she was like, I told her 300, and she was like, "Let's ask for 500." And I was like, she's like, 'cause they take minimum of like 10 hours to make. So they're labor intensive. - Right. - Whether they're fun or regular. Yeah, go ahead. So we raised the money within an hour and we were like, "Why aren't we helping more people?" So we kind of just were like, "Let's keep this going." - Wow. - And before I knew it, it was kind of wild 'cause there was, there's actually like a podcast called... What is it? "Not Your Mom's House" or something like that. Or "Your Mom's House." And the lady, Christina, was amazing. She donated like $5,000. Like- - Oh, no way. - Completely nice. Like, and we're actually signed up to go see her. She's gonna be in town at the end of March. So we're really excited, because for every 500 we've decided to make a fun eye. There's a little criteria for that. And so far, I actually just added it up, we've made like 30 eyes so far. - Of the fun eyes? - So it's been helping people. - Of, like, the extra- - Yeah, yeah. - Wow. - Yeah. And we actually have, which is amazing, we actually have, of all of those, we have like, I think there's still like 150 people signed up for a fun eye that can't afford one. So I think it's just kind of cool to see, like, all of the interests around the world. And, like, working with all these people, it's really cool to see them happy and excited, and it's like a sense of closure and, like, healing that you won't, you know, I guess I didn't see happening. And when I started to see that, I think Rachel and I kinda, like, looked at each other and we're like, "Do you see the light beaming from their faces? We're gonna do this." - Wow. - Like, it's game on. - And it seems like it kind of ended up sort of doubling up on itself in a way in the sense that, you know, you created this scenario where people wanted to donate all this money, but then with your kind of fun eye, I don't know, incentive, right, you're also- - Yeah. - you're kind of donating, or like making an agreement with everybody that I'm gonna give back, too, as much as you give back with these fun eyes. And then now you have like double, I guess double the eyes or something just about- - Yeah. - that are coming out. - Yeah. - Do people, like how many people... Are they excited about these fun eyes? They're wearing these fun eyes? Do they wear them all the time? Do they wear them when they go out? Like, how does that work? - Yeah. So the most depressing is when, like, I make them, if they're in office, they happen to come in for a normal eye. I've gotten a lot more bookings where it's like, "We want to come in for our normal eye," which is paid through insurance, but then, "We also want to get a separate fun eye. Could we sign up at the same time?" And so we're booking, like, doubles kinda. And there's also people that will, like, write me and say, "We want a fun eye." They'll schedule to come out or, you know, or give me their eye to copy, 'cause that's all I need. And they, like, they don't even know what they want. So it's just the idea of Christina's making this. - I don't care what she makes, I'm gonna rock her design. - Yeah. - And I've also gotten, like, some creative freedom on a few of them, so I'm really excited for that. So they're like, "Well, this is kind of what we're into, and this is what we like." So it's like a tattoo artist, but for your eyeball. - Yeah, I was gonna say that it's like you're an artist- - Yeah. - and people want your creation as much as they just want something new, which has gotta feel fantastic, right? - Yeah. Oh, it definitely does. But, well, the sad part is when they, like, get their normal eye and then they end up going, "We're not wearing it." Like, "Sorry you spent 15 hours making this. We like the fun eyes." And they, like, toss it aside. - The fun eye's more fun. That's why you wear the fun eye. Yeah, yeah. Well, and they get to choose when people know that they have a fake eye. So I was just like, "This is kinda great." Yeah. - Well, and I wanted to ask, so I've seen a bit of the clips on your TikTok of you making them a bit. So could you walk us through the process of making say, let's talk about, like, the sparkly one you made for Rachel Mackenzlee with all of the little crystals in it. Can you talk through the process of how that eye gets made? What goes into that 10 hours? - Yeah. So the process starts with molding the eye, which I grabbed a few things. I thought this would come up. I will have, usually, a wax shape depending on whatever shape their eye is, or their existing eye that I can copy if it fits well. And then that actually goes into a two part mold. And I pack that with white plastic and I grind it all down. And I actually do multiple layers. That's why I think it, like, gets very blingy looking. In fact, when I gave her her really Swarovski crystal one, I said, "Careful." 'Cause it was, like, the sun was going down. I was like, "Do not stare at that rear view mirror while you're driving home, because you will crash." 'Cause even in our room it was, like, reflecting everywhere. - Wow. - So it was really fun to watch. And she goes, "No way." So what I do is I'll grind it down to the white layer. Recently I've been using, actually it's like a nail flake, and it's like an iridescent color. So I'll go all the way to the edges, 'cause I think it's important to, like, fill the entire space. And I have one here that I'm working on, and it actually, yeah, they're really sparkly. So I'll layer it, and I'll do a second coat where I'll cut it down kinda like halfway after I do the first layer. And then I'll add more crystals on top of that so they kind of, like, reflect off of each other. So it turns out really pretty. - And I just want to describe that a little bit, 'cause some of our audience may be without vision completely. So what Christina just showed is almost like a round cut crystal with a lot of different angles in the crystal to it. And I can completely understand what you mean about light refracting all over the place because- - Yeah. - I think at some point when I was in fifth grade, we sold the little crystals that hang off a string and spin around that people would put in their rear view mirrors and stuff, and they would create these prisms- - Oh, yeah. - and colors and stuff that would shine light through all over the place. So that's very fun and cool. - Mm-hmm. Yeah. - So didn't mean to interrupt. - They're a blast to make. - Please keep going, but I wanted to make sure that, I know we have a lot of people without vision. - No, you're good. - So if you're showing cool stuff, I want to make sure that they know what it looks like. So is there anything more to the process, or does that pretty much cover it? - Oh, so yeah, so I coat it a couple of times. I do individualized cooks. - So the first time that I process it, each time I, you know, I say cook, but it's processing for two hours, I usually grind them down. The mold making itself is maybe half hour or so once I get everything set, the plastic set. Then it's a two hour process to cook, another half hour to grind down and prep for another painting. So if it requires double the painting or layers, I do it again. So that adds, you know, four, eight, you know, like it just adds up. - It's going, yeah. - Yeah. If I'm physically painting, which I'm in front of my painting table now, it could be an hour to two hours. I've spent three to four hours painting. And then it processes again. And then when I... So that's another two hours and I grind it down. And then there's, like, the final little adjustments, which could take up to an hour. So it adds up. It definitely does. And the fun eyes are done on top of normal work. So, yeah. - So it's almost like this cycle of how they get made, basically, where you're going through similar steps over and over until there's a finished product. - Yep. - It's like making a- - Exactly, exactly. - a katana, right? Like, just keep folding the metal until you're done, right? - Yep. - Tons and tons and tons of time. - Eventually it'll come to. - Yeah. - Yeah, exactly. - So this is what I'm really wondering about, right, because I've got this image in my head of these people now walking around with one eye that is just, like, nuts, right? Like something that you've never seen before. Do your, I don't know, what do you call them? Patience? Clients? - Clients. - Clients. - I don't like patients. - Yeah. - 'Cause they've dealt with the doctors already. - So do your clients ever- What's that? - Yeah. I said they've dealt with doctors already. I'm like, "No, they're clients." - Clients, right. - 'Cause we end up being friends usually. - Friends. - Yeah, that's it. It's fine. - So do your patient/client/friends, do they come back and, like, tell you stories of, you know, what it's like when they walk around, you know, they go to the mall or they, you know, filling up their gas tank, they're going out to dinner with the fun eye. Like, what kind of reactions, and what do people say and do? - Yeah. Well, between the actual reactions from the clients themselves and then online, the online community's crazy. Like, Rachel will come back and be like, "I just went to Target." And she goes, "This lady stops me and goes, 'You're the girl. Like, oh my God, you're wearing your Swarovski crystal eye.'" Or, "You're wearing your new-" - Oh my gosh, she was recognized. - " eye." They know her. Or they'll go through our coffee shop, oh my gosh, one of the local coffee shops, and they go like, "Quick, come here." And they'll, like, pull everyone aside and be like, "Look, it's Rachel, it's Rachel." Like, they know. Or, like, the little kids that I feature, they're definitely, like, spotted, you know? So it's kind of interesting or, I mean, and then there's also like the social media aspect where, like, it'll take on a life of its own. Like, I just featured, like, a gold eye that had a diamond in it, like right in the center, and, like, one of the biggest comments were like, "Illuminati." And you're like, "What?" - Oh, that's funny. - Well, and it goes to Illuminati because at the top of the eye, what you don't see, is it's a triangle and eyeball, but then there's a circle and, like, it was just like, you don't see the most of it, you just see the triangle and the eye. And he didn't ask for it. I just was like, "I don't know, let me put a symbol up top so he knows where the top is." But it took on a whole new life. - That's great. - Yeah, and they're like, "That man is gonna get his eyeball stolen from him." And I'm like, "It's like a $40 diamond. It's nothing big." - Right. And hopefully if it's stolen, it's, like, out of his house while he's at work and not directly out of his eye. - Unfortunately, they would be like, "Oh, he's gonna get robbed for his eyeball." - Oh, I hope not. That would be awful. - Yeah, social media comments are an experience. - Oh, they are, they are. - And I feel like you should almost collect the stories. Like, you've gotta have so many stories that come up, and there's gotta be stories you don't even hear. Part of your social media should just be, like, how the public reacts to these eyes because it's- - Well, yeah, I'm actually working on that. I have something, I have a conference coming up with a whole bunch of one-eyed members, but the bigger thing that I'm featuring is I'm getting two 16 inch eyeballs in diameter that are like these hyper realistic eyeballs. So I'm actually gonna do kind of a spoof of, like, "Between Two Ferns," but it's gonna be called "Right Between the Eyes." - Oh, that's good. - So two eyeballs. And I get to do a Q&A with, you know, the clients- - That's a great idea. - or I'm gonna bring doctors in and, like, we can address, like, either the stories, how they lost their eye, like all sorts of stuff, which I think is gonna be really cool to, like, have a place to check out. And also for people also going through, like, eye loss, like a place to, you know, check back, like how eyes are made or how things are done or, like, just to know a little bit of the process before they get into it. - So, yeah. - Yeah. - What really strikes me about just your whole story here, Christina, is that you've taken something... Like, nobody wants to lose an eye. That's a negative thing that if you ask anybody, they'd be like, "Yeah, I'd rather keep it, thank you." You know? And you've turned it around into something, not just fun, but something that is, like, unique. Almost, I don't know if the word advantage is right, but just something that- - Yeah. - is unique and expressive that a person who only has one eye can now do. And that can be like a just... They can be individual instead of looking at that as like, "Oh, you know, I lost an eye, and I'm just gonna replace it and try to look." - They're in their own little class. - They're own their own little class, and it's- - Yeah, they're own cool club. Yeah, that's it. - Yeah. It's cool club. It's beyond, "Can you give me a replacement so that I look normal? Like, so I fit into the societal kind of norm of having two eyes." Right? To, "I'm gonna take it one step above that, and I'm actually going to look cool." Right? "I'm gonna do something that's-" - Yes, yes. - So I think it's just... And I know that that's not what you set out to do, but based on your- - Yeah. - fun personality and the heart that you had that created and that followed this path, you know, starting with that one, you know, kid that you were talking about. That's what came out of it, right? Which is an interesting thing in and of itself that it doesn't have to be an idea you bring to fruition. It can be you just following your personality and who you are and your instincts and what seems right. - Right. - And it blows up into this amazing thing. I just love it. I just love the way... It's kind of the ultimate negative into a positive story. And in the funnest way, right? - Exactly. - Not just like, "Oh, this is a positive." But it's just fun. It's nothing but pure fun and glitz and glamour. And you've got these... People are turning into celebrities, you're turning into a celebrity. - Yeah. - In the funnest sense of all that. And I just think it's wonderful. - Yeah. Yeah, one thing I- - Well, and actually- - Oh, go ahead, sorry. I cut you off. - Oh, you go first and then I'll ask something. - I was gonna say the coolest part, not only are they, like, doing these eyes, not only are they fun, it's, like, super therapeutic. So another thing I like to do is I go with my friend, Sarah, who's a therapist, and I like to, like, go to some of the therapy classes where they teach and just see, like, what makes someone feel good about themselves. So in a way, I kind of bring that into my own situation. Because most people that lose their eye, whether they realize it or not, they've been through trauma. Because the removal itself, especially between COVID and, like, everyone having their, you know, faces covered, you're looking at your eyes, and ultimately that's- - I didn't even think of that. - Yeah, you make, like, eye contact with people. So it's really hard for someone who either, like, has had an eye, or an eye that hasn't fit well or look good, 'cause they're with, whatever eye they get, they have it for like five years before they're approved for another one. It's just nice for them to feel good about it, too. Eyes are so important. You know, it's the first thing you wake up, you look in the mirror. The first thing people look at when they look at you. So if you feel good about it and you could put that out, it's really nice to see that as, like, a confidence booster, too. So it's been really cool to see that, like, come through. And also, when I happen to get people like Rachel Mackenzlee and, like, Miss Sunshine together, we did that in October. I saw this really cool, like, bonding that they had between each other. They lost their eyes different ways, but they both happened to be the left eye, anyway, so they, like, bonded. And that's kind of why I'm throwing this little, like, eyeball party. Because it's really helpful. Yeah, I think there's, like, a way it... They really are a one-eyed gang. - So, yeah. - I think one of the important things that you said there, too, is like, we always think of sight being so important, which it is, right? Like, again- - Yeah. - nobody would choose to lose their sight. - Exactly. - But I think you bring up a good point about how the eye itself is important because it's such a direct expression, and directly the way that we express ourselves. And we make contact. When we're not physically touching each other, we're making contact through that, looking at each other's eyes. So I thought that was an interesting point. But Dara, you have a question that you've been dying to ask, so I'll be quiet for a minute. - Oh, I was just curious about, so you know, you work on your fun eyes a lot. You also, of course, have the rest of your business with the more, like, the realistic eyes. And I wanted to talk, you just talk about a bit of, you know, a bit about what it's like to paint them. I have a bit of an art background, so I'm very interested in how you make them look so realistic, but also, you know, how people interact with those. You know, are they surprised at how realistic they look when they have them in? Like, I just want to hear a bit more about that. - Yeah, I trained under a few different people, and the last person I trained under, who was Fred Harwin, I moved to Portland basically to reevaluate my skills and obtain better ones. And so, to do that, you know, nine years in is really hard. I essentially dropped everything I knew as far as technique went, and relearned how I was painting and how I was even going about my fitting processes. I retrained myself completely. And I think I pushed myself to a limit where I saw where he was, you know, like his skill level, and I was like, "I need to be above that. I need to figure out ways to get better results or better, you know, ways to, you know, just to show it." But yeah, my processing for that, it's been amazing. I played around with technology a little. I think it really is just doing the time and putting time into painting and learning how to develop color. I do teach color theory with the ocularist, too. We all are working together to make better products, obviously. But I think it really helps to have a good understanding of color theory, how colors come out. Because it's not just putting a color down, it's thinking about their lighting or if they have a pupil. I'll do pupils that look like they expand if they have a lighter eye. And that technique I learned from Fred, and it was actually, like, a larger pupil and doing almost a stippling technique around the larger pupil that was very opaque in color. So like a white or a light gray over top, and there's little spots that are in between. So in bright light, it looks like it's tiny, like the pupil's really tiny. And then in dark light- - Oh. - it looks- - Oh, how interesting. - Yeah. - That's fascinating. - The opacity goes away and it looks bigger. But it's fun to do. And once you get it it's actually really helpful, I think, in, like, all sorts of situations. Whether or not you're, like, going to dinner with your partner, or going to a movie and you're in a dim light area. You know, it's kind of nice to have that. - Right. - But yeah, it's just time and effort, really, is what it boils down to. - Christina, how did you get interested in this in the first place? It's such a unique career path. - Yeah. - I'm really- - Yeah. - I'm really curious as to how you even sort of stumbled upon it and then what, you know, what drew you towards it. - Yeah. I actually really wanted to get into making limbs when I was younger, and I got my degree in industrial design at the Art Institute of Philadelphia. - Okay. - And I liked it because it was all hands-on. So industrial design was my background, and I was working on a human factors course, and at that time I was making a table, chair, all sorts of stuff, really big things. And I said, "Oh, I'm gonna make something small." So it ended up being like kind of a cop out to do something small. - But I was like, I don't know, people take their eyes out, right? They pop their eyes out like dentures. I have no idea. I've never met anyone with an eyeball. So here I am working, actually, I was in an art history course. I was making a case that had, like, braille lettering that said like, "eyeball case" or something. It had a suction cup to take your eye out. It had a mirror, it had, like, a place to put your eyeball. I don't know. It had a place for lubrication. So what little I did find, I was just like, "What would be useful to have for someone in that sort of a need?" And I happened to be working on it in a museum... Well, it was art history. And the lady next to me had an eye. I had no clue. She actually waited till everyone left and she, like, popped it out, which I thought- - That is so nuts. - she just had like lazy eye. I thought she had a lazy eye. I honestly, like, didn't know that she had an eye. So generally, yeah, like eyes, sometimes if they're not fitting right just look like lazy eyes, and most people just, like, don't even pay attention. So it's kind of amazing. So I just kind of said, she goes, "I think my ocularist might have a spare for your project." And I go, "Really? Okay." So I went there and I- - Did you go, "Really? What's an ocularist?" - Yeah. - 'Cause that's what I would've said. - Yeah. I was just like, "What?" - Yeah, same. - I didn't know the name of it back then. - Is that that VR thing everybody's playing with? - Yeah, the Oculus, right, right. Oh my gosh. - Which is, by the way, ocularist has gotta be one of the coolest sounding names for a profession ever. - It does sound very fancy. - It does. - Yeah. - But it's funnier when your phone auto corrects to occultist and you're like, "Wait, what?" - That's not what I meant. - Yeah, also another interesting career out there. - Yeah. - Ocularist also sounds like the name of a superhero, right? Like, "We're in trouble, call Ocularist." - Yeah. - It's just got that- - We should do that, yeah. - ring to it. Which, in a way, it is the name of a superhero if you really think about it, right? I'm calling you a superhero, Christina. She's like, "Yeah, that sounds good." - Well, thanks. I don't know, I see myself more of as a magician. If your job's done right, no one notices. - There you go. - It's like the most cool job, the most unnoticeable job in the world. - There you go. - Yeah, no one notices until like recently, obviously. But, yeah. - Well, see, that's what's interesting, 'cause you basically have two sides of your job, where one side, the goal is what people want is an eye that completely matches their other eye and is essentially invisible. And that's the goal and what's going to make them happy about the eye. And then you have other people who the entire goal is to be not invisible, to be the most obvious possible, and that's what's going to make them happy. - Exactly. - So it's like you do similar things, but they have completely different effects- - Yeah. - each time. - Yeah. No, they do. And I mean, that's the other thing I've learned is with the fun eyes, like, it kind of pushes me to, like, get my techniques better, which is why I started to do that because... Let's see if I have one. At the tops of most of the eyes I'll, like, I used to ask people, and I still do for the regular eyes, just to mark where the top is, the insertion, if they've got something they want me to paint. So, like, some people will say, "Oh, I want a rose for the Rose City," or, "I want my pet," or, "I want, like, my career," or, "I want an emblem or something." So I paint that. But the fun eyes were just, like, an expansion of that, which was kind of cool to, you know, fix and push myself to a limit, basically, artistically, which I thought was really helpful for my overall career. So it's just extra practice, if you think of it like that. Yeah, it's kind of neat. - Yeah. - You know, Dara, if you came to me a week ago and said like, "Oh, you know, the people who make eyes, like, does that sound interesting?" I'd be like, "Not really." - No. - Oh my gosh. Like, what? Like, you keep saying, Dara, like, the artistic aspect of it. - Yeah. - The reward of it. Like, to me, it's harder to imagine how you got into it than it is to imagine why you stay in it. Like, after talking to you, it's just such an interesting and absolutely... I mean, it sounds very exciting. It sounds like the human connection is fantastic, and it sounds like, you know, I think people love to get good at stuff, right? And you particularly seem like, Christina, like that's part of what draws you to this is just how much better can I get? Like, "That's great-" - Exactly. "I just did this eye. how much better can I do the next eye, and the next eye and the next eye and the next eye?" - Yeah. And that's almost an issue with me. Yeah, I never like any eye I make, usually. Like, I'll just go- - Yeah. - "Oh, that was okay. Yeah, we can do better." Like, it's really sad, and everyone else is like, usually when I give an eye they'll be, you know, inspecting it and saying, "Oh, this is cool. Well, did you see this thing?" Or they'll see a photo. I usually photo before and after and I'll show them with my camera, and they'll go, "Oh, yeah, the prosthetic looks really good." And I'll go, "That's your real eye." And they go, "Oh, we thought that was the prosthetic. Oh, our good eye needs, like, fixing or something." - That's gotta be so cool when that happens. - Yeah. - Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. - And I think that people who are perfectionists and people who get really good at their job are probably because of how critical they are of themselves. - Yeah. - So, you know, I don't think that that's... I think that that's just a good quality is all I would call it. I wouldn't, you know, it doesn't seem like it's really a problem. It's made you hugely successful. And so, what are the technical questions or just curiosity, like not knowing this world of people who need an eye like this. - Yeah. - You mentioned something earlier about fit, right? And you said if the fit is right, which conceptually can make sense. - Yeah. - But am I right in assuming that if you have an eye that fits really well, it tracks with the other eye? So when you look left or right, that the fake eye, replacement eye, however you say that, is tracking with it? - No. - Or does it not do that? - No. So the tracking is in correlation to, like, whether a surgeon, if they've had, like, a trauma of how they've lost their eye, if the muscles were reattached, if they've had the eye removed, 'cause we fit over both. There's some where you fit over where their eye is still there. So there's been no muscle reattachment. Sometimes it's shrunken. And then recently, I just made one for a lady named Chelsea, which is on my social media, and she has a very full globe. So hers was challenging in particularly because it was almost as open as her regular, you know, regular eye. - Mm-hmm. - So adding key material to it, I think hers measured in at like a half a millimeter thick or less in certain points. Very, very thin. And we have to paint in between those layers, too. So it's very, very thin. But if someone has their eye removed, what I'm gonna hold up is a... They used to be like little coral implants. And this is just plastic. And there's little tiny, like, places where a muscle can grow into. - Oh, I see. - So they'll have- - Like, deeply sort of textured. - Yes, so the muscles go- - It feels like it would be like a very coarse sandpapery kind of feel almost. - Yeah. - What it looks like. - So it's more of a plastic. It feels kind of dull. So the surgeons will open up the muscles that you have, take out the eye, remove the muscles, and then reattach. And usually they'll put, like, donor tissue over top. So the inside of a socket, it's not graphic, but it looks like the inside of your cheek. It should look pink when it's healed properly. - Okay. - And healing after your eye's... Yeah, healing after your eye's removed is like six to eight weeks. Depends. And then if you get, sometimes if they don't put a implant in, they'll put a fat graft, which is usually taken, like, from your buttocks area or your, like, abdomen. And that can take up to six months to heal. So I can't imagine being without, you know, an eye for that long. That's a really long time. But they'll take all that out. And depending on how things have healed, I take an impression. I grabbed some other materials. I like using this stuff called BPS. It looks terrifying, right? - Yeah. - So now the- - For our viewers at home- - It looks worse on film. - know that this straight up looks like a hulk gun. - Right, like I'm ready to go tranquilize or something, right? - Right. Or a laser gun. Maybe it's part of your- - Right. - superhero persona. Like, that's what you... There we go. - It becomes a space laser. - I won't approach someone's face with this, 'cause I wouldn't want to be approached with this. So a lot of my fittings- - I would go immediately into defensive mode. - Yeah, I don't know if I would stay in that chair. - I would assume- - Yeah. - you're trying to vaporize me. - It's so bad. I have a little mixing tip that'll mix the two parts. - That I'm not near as afraid of. - Yeah. - If you think of epoxy, like, that's like a two-part type thing. This stuff will go on. There's two different materials that most people use. It's alginite, which is a derivative of, like, seaweed or kelp. So it sets liquidy. Or, it'll go in liquid and then set like jello. So it's kind of a cool material to squish around. And then there's this, which will set a little harder. But it's better over kind of like a damaged eye, so it doesn't irritate the socket as much. And so I'll place some of that in a bowl, a mixing bowl, and then I'll put it on a impression tray, which I've got like, I don't know, a whole bunch of impression trays that are different shapes that I insert into the socket, and it's got, like, a little stem, and that's where I'll place the material through so it kind of fills that area. And that's where you'll get the movement. So as long as it fills the area entirely, you'll be able to capture what movement there is. So, yeah. - You're saying it kinda- - That's it. - It kind of has to be near all... It has to be touching the skin that has the muscles underneath, or else- - Yeah. - there won't be any movement, basically. - Yep. Yeah, so, I mean, if you were to think over your own lid when you, like, kind of peek under your lid, that tissue stops and comes back up. So I'm just filling like a contact, a really big- - Okay. - area that's contact shape. Put in maybe like a couple millimeters thick. That's all it is, yeah. - I was gonna say that this kind of Hollywood trope of the glass eye that's really a marble, it doesn't sound like that's very accurate at all that- - Like this guy right here? - Yeah. - I mean, I understand where they got that. So this is like a piece of glass, it's a doll's eye, and there would be naturally a long stem where the glass blower would be blowing from the back. I actually got to watch another ocularist in Germany. During the pandemic we got to do virtual conferences, which was really cool in the ocularistry field. And so they would create the iris, and then they would create the back of it, and they would literally, like, take these calibers, not these, but their own, and they would, while it was hot, kind of, like, squish it in certain directions and capture that person's eye. And if it didn't match up perfectly, they would just cast it aside and make another one because you can't go back in with glass. And I believe that's where the term stock eye came from. So stock eyes are also a thing where I've seen some people still, they're made, like, I think India and Mexico and a few other places still make them, but it's something I usually push to stay away from because if a stock eye doesn't fit correctly, that implant that you have in your socket can rub through the tissue and you can have an exposure. - Oh. - Which is it coming through the surface. And that's why I, like, emphasize on the fit being well fit. Not so much with the movement. I mean, I hope that, you know, they've got great movement, and for the most part, I usually have, most people do show up, so I usually am able to check everything, or I'll work with their ocularist when they get a fun eye and make sure that they're seen to make sure everything fits properly. 'Cause yeah, we don't want exposures and we don't want to risk that. And I think that's important, too, because it's funny, I was thinking about that the other day. Someone said, "Well, couldn't you just ship something out? Couldn't you just make something?" You know? And I go, "No, I can't do a prefabbed one because if it rubs, that could lead to so many problems." And also being board certified, you know, you gotta watch all that because- - Right. - Yeah. - there's making eyes and there's doing a good job. You don't want to do a disservice to the community, and yeah, that's it. - So is what I'm hearing that in the US there was a time when they were more, like, circular and marble like, and then they became this idea of doing them more like flat concave, or have, in the US have they always been more of the concave-like ones like you make? - Yeah, I think they've always been concave. I think that's just Hollywood making them circular. I don't know why. - Okay. - It's just, you know, and some people come in and their loved ones come in and go, "Well, we thought you were just gonna give them a ball." - Yeah. - "What happened?" You know? - Yeah, I mean, I still hear people get that impression- - Yeah. - 'cause I could think like even a couple years ago in like "Avengers: Endgame" you see- - Right. - Or maybe that was- - Oh my gosh. - No, that's "Infinity War." It's an orb. - Was it the... An orb, but also, if you've noticed during the "Infinity War," I forget which one exactly, one of the Avengers, the father. Oh no, it was, what is the... "Black Panther." The father in that is actually wearing a prosthetic eye. - Oh, he is? - I remember watching that in the theater- Oh, yeah. When it goes to, like, the scene where he's, like, kinda like passed along and dead, that's been interesting because, like, I looked at my partner and I go, "Do you see he's wearing a prosthetic eye? They could not have just paid someone to make him a better eye? Are you kidding me? With all these visual effects?" I'm like- - Funny. - "Get the poor man a better eye." But anytime there's eyes in a movie, oh, I get hit up all the time. All the time. But yeah, my coworker sent me a note. She says the role for the eyeballs was for dramatic effect. I was like, "This is very true. This is very true." And then- - Well, and- - Yeah. Oh, go ahead. - Oh, I was just gonna say I'm very glad to have that trope cleared up, by the way. Like, literally as a layperson, this concept of sort of an initial implant that you're putting something over the top of and that it's not just a round, you know, oblong marble or something that you're sticking in there- - You'll just pop a marble in. - Like, I would have made a fool of myself before this conversation. - Yeah. - In what I know. - Yeah, yeah. - So I think that's a... I appreciate having that all cleared up. That's great. - Yeah, exactly. - And you know what, Hollywood's Hollywood, so let them. They need that eye to roll away and to- - Yes. - try to chase it for it to be funny. - Exactly, exactly. - Your eyes are fun, but they're not funny, 'cause they don't roll away. So, you know, we'll leave that to Hollywood. - Yeah. Well, or Rachel, 'cause she'll throw them. I'm like, "Just wait." - Oh. Beaming somebody with your eyeball just sounds like fun no matter what shape it is. That's fine. - Yeah, absolutely. Little kids love doing that. The little kids usually will- - Wait, really? - And, like, chuck them. Or the best is they'll take them out, they'll chuck them, or they'll bite them, or something weird. - Oh. - Oh my gosh. Little kids are funny. But, yeah, yeah. - Well, listen, this conversation has been incredibly fun. And like I said, I would never have predicted that a conversation with what I now know is called an ocularist, did I say that right? - Yes. Yes, you did. - What's that? Swedish? Would be so much fun. So thank you for such a fun conversation. Thank you for enlightening us. This is what we love about this podcast is we learn so much. And we've learned a couple of our preconceptions here are completely wrong, from the shape of an eye that you would make to just how exciting and fun and artistic your career is and can be. And I think it's just amazing, amazing how you've stretched the boundaries of what you do in a way that's just touched other people in the way it has. And you know, so kudos to you for that. Anything that you didn't bring up or that we didn't say or that you feel like you should reemphasize before we part ways? - No, I think we covered, like, a lot of bases. I think that was really informative, actually. I think, yeah. - Well, maybe, did you learn anything, Christina? Or was it just... I think Dara and I did all the learning for everyone if I had guess. - Yeah. - Yeah. Well no, it's sometimes nice to hear, like, the other side, 'cause that's something I'm also exploring is, like, what other people perceive us as, or what they perceive prosthetics as, or what they look like, or how they're made. It's nice to hear that side. No matter how many years I've been in this, it's just refreshing to hear, you know, like the typical questions 'cause- - Yeah. - it helps me know what to answer or what could be a question to someone who's embarrassed about asking that question. So, yeah. - Yeah. - You want to know what people are thinking in their head, and just, like, waiting and just not saying- - Yeah. - kind of deal. - I mean, we all have knowledge bias- - Absolutely. - based on whatever it is that we know really well. And I think sometimes it's nice to revisit that perspective of somebody who's just not exposed to everything that you- - Yeah. - deal with every day. - The beginner. - Yeah, the beginner. - Yeah, yeah. Exactly. - Well, thank you so much. - Awesome. - A really fun conversation. - Yeah. - Really appreciate you and all that you've done. - It was great having you on today. - It absolutely was. - Cool. - Well, this is Mark Miller- - Thanks. - thanking Christina and Dara and reminding you all to keep it accessible. This podcast has been brought to you by TPGi, the experts in digital accessibility. Stay tuned for more "Real People, Real Stories" podcasts coming soon.