- [Voiceover] Welcome TPGi's "Real People, Real Stories" podcast, where you'll find interesting and diverse stories from folks working to make the world a more inclusive place. - Hey, welcome to the "Real People, Real Stories" podcast, brought to you by TPG. I'm your host, Mark Miller, thanking you for helping us keep it accessible. Do us a favor, if you're enjoying the "Real People, Real Stories" podcast, share it, tell someone about it, hey, even link to it from your Accessible website. Welcome everybody. Thanks for being here, thanks for listening. I wanna get right into it and introduce our wonderful guest today. And I'm gonna take my best shot at this first name, which I just learned how to pronounce a few minutes ago. It's Shani? How did I do? Yes! - Very good. - I'm giving myself some points for that. So, welcome to the podcast. You know, I've done a little bit of research and looking. You do so much stuff. Where I'd love to start with you is, can you tell us a little bit about your yourself- - Yeah. - and kinda how you got into doing everything that you do? You're almost kind of a, almost, not even almost, but you're a celebrity over there in the UK. And you talk- - No, almost, not quite. - I'm gonna say celebrity based on what I saw. Like, if we were face-to-face, I'd have you autograph something, how's that? But tell me the story behind, you know, tell me a little bit about what you do, but I also wanna hear like, how did you even end up doing all the real cool stuff that I've seen, that I'm hanging on to, that I'm hoping you reveal to the audience? - Yeah, sure. I never planned any of it. It's all just happened quite organically. So, I am a really proud South Asian disabled woman, brought up in the second city here in the UK, called Birmingham. We're a very friendly bunch. And I was born with a rare genetic condition. And what that meant for me in terms of education was I was segregated. I went to a special needs primary school and then really struggled when I went to, like a mainstream secondary school. And then I tried to enter the job market at 16 and really struggled. I had to apply for over 100 jobs. And it wasn't until I removed- - Wow. - any mention of my condition was I then offered an interview. So at 16, I learned a really harsh life lesson that in the UK there's a huge stigma in getting a job if you look different, if you share that you live with a condition, or impairment. And I have a very visible one. So, I have a short stature, about the height of four-year-old. And when people asked me, "Well, why did you even put that on your application?" I was doing it because I know people are a bit awkward when they first meet me, especially if they've never met other people with a short stature, or other disabled people. I was doing it to help my prospective employer. Unknowingly it was going against me. So, it's fair to say that that gave me a real harsh wake up call because until that age, I was in the safety net of education, of healthcare. You know, you're a kid, aren't you? You're sheltered from all of it, but suddenly I was at this point where I had a better quality of life and had all my surgeries, all my treatment. I was ready to go out there in the world, and earn and contribute to society, and work, but society didn't want me. And it's all- - Well, so did you get any insight as to... Like, I'm trying to imagine this right? You know, your disability is your height, right? Like, I guess I don't understand how that would affect. I'm sure you weren't applying for like, you know, I wanna be an NBA star, or something where the height would come into play, right? It had to be just kinda the regular jobs out there. Like, you could be just... I don't understand how that would get in the way. Did you ever hear from people that said, "We're not gonna hire you because your height's a challenge this way, or that way?" Or was it just pure, like unchecked bias? - So, what happened was is, I would have one sentence on my covering letter and it used to say, you know, "I've got a condition, but it doesn't affect my ability to do this role." And you hit the nail on the head there. And I would only be applying for jobs that I knew I could do. - Yeah. - So, you know, a lot of my friends, they'd get jobs- - As you do. - in bars, or restaurants. I knew I couldn't do that. So, a lot of the jobs that I applied for, they'd be like, desk jobs, call center jobs, like jobs I knew I could do. Like, why am I gonna set myself up to fail, right? But it wasn't until I removed that sentence, after not hearing back, after applying for over 100 jobs- - That's amazing. - that I got an interview straight away. So for me, that's all I needed to know, is that as soon as I took that off, I got an interview. - And so, when you show up, I'm sure you showed up physically for this interview- - Yeah. - how did that go then? - It went great, to be honest. And then I realized, right, okay, it definitely is the fact that I'm sharing this so openly on my application. But also, when I look back on that time, I really was quite naive. Nobody told me it was gonna be this difficult to get a job as a disabled person. And I wish I could sit here and say to you, "But it's changed now," but it hasn't. It's still really difficult, so much so that disabled people in the UK are still twice as likely to be unemployed and we have to apply for 60% more jobs. So, that's how blatant it was for me. But then it left me feeling really hopeless because I just thought, well, hang on, if I can't get a part-time entry-level job that needs no qualifications, how on earth am I gonna live? How am I gonna earn money and live for the rest of my life? Because as I'm sure we know, like it's quite expensive being disabled, right? So, last year, I added up all of my additional extra costs that I face due to living in an inaccessible society, and it came to over 13,000 pounds. - Wow. - So, you know, we've got this really horrible vicious cycle that one, when we wanna work, we can't get opportunities, you know, then if we are in work, we face a huge disability pay gap, then we face all these additional extra costs. And then, I dunno what it's like where you are, but here in the UK, there's a big misconception that the government gives you loads of money if you're disabled, or gives you everything that you need, but it's just not the case. - Yeah. It's not too different here. And I would say, like the one thing that I would add to that just in, you know, talking to people all my life, is that there's also a perception of why would you work, or, you know, isn't there just government assistance? You know, and I think, without saying it, you're making it clear in the way you sort of passionately sort of described your search for work, it's that people with disabilities are people. And people want to contribute. They don't, you know, for the most part, want handouts, or want anything like that. And I think that that's a difficult concept for people to realize is like, hey, if you allow people with disabilities to work, they're gonna work, they're gonna become contributing members of society. And people want that. It's part of your values. So, I think that's the other challenge that I've seen here in the U.S. is because of the assistance that's given, you get a lot of people that just think like, "Oh, well they don't have to work." Like, oh, you know, they drew some sort of, like lucky card and that's it. But it's not. - It's so not. - It's not it, and you might want more, you might want more than what that's- - You're so right, yeah. - gonna give you. - And you know, I had people saying that to me when I was really struggling to get a job is, "Oh, well, can't you just live on benefits?" just like they're being handed out like sweets. But it's just not the case. Like, I'm really glad that our welfare system exists and I hope that the people that need it can really access it, but from what I know and from what I've learned from my friends and my community, is that the assessments aren't fit for purpose. If you are eligible for support, it's never enough. It doesn't touch the sides of these extra costs. So, there really is a big misconception. I think, one, people just do not understand the lives of disabled people and our lived reality. And, two, it just sounds great, doesn't it? Oh, just, you know, have a free handout and live on the government, but it's just not the case. - Yeah. So, one of the things that I find interesting just about that beginning story is that, you know, you said that when you mentioned it on your letter that you had, you know, cover letter that you had a disability, people were automatically shutting you outta that opportunity. When it wasn't there, you got your interviews, and then when you showed up, it kinda went okay. - Yeah. - And I think that that's very interesting because I think one, what people will do, it's like driving a car, right? You get really angry at other drivers, but if you're face-to-face with that person, maybe you wouldn't be so, you know, your attitude changes a little bit. It's kind of the same way, right? It's very easy to be judgmental when nobody's gonna hold you accountable. And sort of passing by that resume is exactly that scenario. So, much more difficult when you're face-to-face. And then secondarily, those people probably very quickly got to know you. - Hmm. - And then, getting to know you and sort of being socially beyond the disability, and into the human, into the person that's, you know, I don't know, behind the disability is the right way to say it, but the person who has the disability is different. So, it seems like a lot of the work you do, which we haven't gotten into yet, is maybe putting that forward a little bit, right? Like putting that in front of society and saying, hey, no, this is a person and this is a person that you can get to know. So, I think it's very interesting and I think that, you know, everybody wants to challenge themselves, right? And if there's ways that people can challenge themselves, it's, hey, do ignore something, like, I have a disability, take it for what it is, right, and get to know that person. And then if they're not right for the job, that's great. But challenge yourself to kind of get past those things, and talk. You know, that's what I would say about that. And I just find it really interesting, like the stark difference between that face-to-face and that anonymous cover letter, you know? - Yeah. - So, tell me a little bit, just going into that, like you said going through the education system wasn't so bad except for that switch where you mainstreamed, right, which I can completely understand, right? You probably weren't quite prepared to be put into a harsher mainstream environment. But as you were going through education, what did you wanna be? Like, what were your hopes and dreams, and what did you wanna... What did you think that you would end up being as you grew up? You know, the old age old question for a young person? - It's a great question. So, when I was younger, I toyed between wanting to be a teacher, wanting to be a swimming teacher, and an air hostess. Well, clearly the air hostess thing wasn't gonna happen for me. But if I'm being truthfully honest, so the condition that I was born with means that my bones break without any trauma. So, my childhood was just spent breaking my bones. So, it means just wouldn't have to have an accident, or injury for my bones to break. - Just a little pressure one way, or another under a normal circumstance could do it, that kinda thing? - Yeah, every morning. when I wake up, I have to sort of check my body to see if everything's where it is, nothing's broken in the night. And if I'm being truthfully honest- - It's terribly inconvenient. Right? But I also didn't have any time to think about what my adult life would look like, if I'm being honest. I just thought, well, this is my life and this is all that will happen to me because every year without fail, I'd always break my leg. And that would take six months of recovery minimum- - Wow. - Then learning how to walk again. So, just imagine how much of school I'd missed. And then I transitioned from a special needs school to then a mainstream school. So, I already felt like I didn't even know the basics. Then I felt like I couldn't even keep up. So, I've never felt particularly clever, or academic, but I've always, you know, really worked hard to try and keep up. - Right. - But I mentioned, you know, I had some surgery, some treatment, and my quality of life improved quite dramatically as a result of that. And that's why at 16, like I was ready, I was ready to go out in the world, but the world was saying no to me. So, all of that happening, you know, I got a part-time job while I was at college, but then what that meant, is I didn't know what I wanted to study because no one had ever talked to me about it. - That's interesting. - Yeah, and I just thought, "Oh, well, I've gotta do something. I might as well just choose something." So, I chose to work with early years, like young children, age three to four. And I enjoyed it, but I got quite complacent straight away. But I think the power dynamic was really interesting because I was the same height as those kids. But like, I had authority, I gave them food, you know, I knew where the good toys were. So, I enjoyed it, but I quickly knew that it wasn't for me. And then I thought, well, look how hard it's been for me to just get a part-time job. I felt like I had to go to university. I felt like I had to have a degree to fall back on because I felt then suddenly, that I can't give any prospective employer a single reason to not even interview me, let alone not hire me. So, I chose a degree in event management. And again, there was no like, strategy behind this. I just chose it because I'm the person in my family, I plan the holidays, the parties, and the get-togethers, and I thought, "Oh, that looks good. Not too many exams, lots of coursework. That'll suit me just fine." But little did I know that I was actually choosing a career that was so suited to my skillset and skills I'd learned from living in a world that isn't designed for me. You know, I have to think outside of the box. Figuring out how I'm gonna reach my kitchen cupboards is the least of my problems. I live in a world where there are more clothes designed for dogs than bodies like mine. - Wow. - You know, everything I have to plan to the nth degree. And then, as an event and project manager, you also know have to know what to do in a crisis. Well, living with brittle bone disease really sets you up for that. So, what I didn't realize is that I had chosen a career that was really suited to my skillset, and I did that for 10 years, and I really enjoyed it. But what I really loved is when, you know, celebrities, the world's biggest sports member turning up to these prestigious venues, they didn't expect me, a South Asian woman whose height is 3 foot 10 to be running the entire show So, I really love that I got to challenge people's perceptions. - Yeah. - And I was doing a job that I enjoyed and I was good at. - I just love that. I mean, I think a lot of people stumble into careers in their own way, through their own paths that they didn't plan as a child. Like, that piece of your story is not necessarily terribly unique because I think we all have ideas, or don't have ideas. And I do think though that it's interesting because, you know, you made the comment that there's a lot of expenses associated with having a disability and then hearing your comments about your clothing and stuff, I would imagine that that's part of it. Is just putting clothes on your own back is a challenge because like you said, there's, you know, not many out there made for you. So, I would imagine that, you know, that kind of, that kind of thing sort of goes, you know, hand in hand with a lot of these other experiences. But it's amazing to me that you stumbled into, or what I was gonna say is it goes hand in hand with not having the opportunity, it's kind of in the same bucket, it's not having the opportunity to think about your future when you're so, when you're so focused on your present, because your present is difficult, right? So, it's like all these things that kind of compound. But I think what's wonderful about that is that it actually strengthened you, right? That that made you stronger and what you ended up doing, you loved, right? - Yeah. Yeah. - So what was it, like you had this 10-year point in entertainment and then you move out of it. It's a very fulfilling 10 years, it sounds like. - It was. - Right? Then you go into, you've met all these celebrities and all this kind of stuff, which has to be really neat, right? Like everybody loves that. So, what evolves from there? Like, how do you take something that you were really pretty pleased with and develop it even further and become even happier with it? - So, two things happened. So, in my mid-20s, I accidentally discovered the social model. And that changed my life. And the social model talks about how it's not our conditions and impairments that disable us, it's the barriers and the bias that we face in society. And I had never heard this. And I discovered it by accident. And in the South Asian community, disability faces an even further sense of stigma. So, I think here in the UK, the perception of disability is everyone either thinks that you're doing welfare benefit fraud, or everyone thinks that you wanna be a Paralympian. There's, like no middle ground. It's just those two extremes. And you know, I grew up with people in my community saying to me, "Oh, you must've done something bad in your past life, that's why you were born with this condition." - Oh. - So you know, it was all that on top. And I'd never knew what to do with those comments because I don't even know if I believe in past lives. And I was like, "Oh, okay, great. Was I murderer then?" I literally- - Then why would you, why would wanna believe in past lives if that, you know? - I would just sit there thinking these things and how unhelpful is that? I respect everybody's wishes. You know, everyone has a choice to believe what they want, but that's not nice, or okay to put that onto anybody else. So, I hated my disability identity. Mark, if you had met the 20-year-old version of me, I wanted nothing to do with my disability identity. I was not disabled and I hated it. - Yeah. - But then I realized that, okay, when I need to go and buy food, I need to park in the Accessible parking bay. When I wanna go to a concert and watch Drake in concert, I have to book the disabled booking line. You know, it was society telling me I was disabled. And I was like, maybe I need to just kinda get on board with this because it's exhausting. Everyone treats you a certain way, and you're like, "No, I'm not this. I'm not this." - Right. Right. - So, that was one thing. I discovered the social model and it made so much sense to me. And I thought, wow, I've gone through my whole life, like at that point, 25, like why did no one say this to me? Why didn't a single medical professional say this to me? I needed that. I needed them to say that. I needed them to say, "We are gonna help you manage your condition, but it's not your condition that disables you." Because I live in London and we have the tube system, the underground tubes. And I can't access it 'cause it's not accessible. But I can't ring my consultant and say, "Oh, I can't use the tube, can I?" It's not his job to fix that. - Right. Right. - So, this just made so much sense to me. And then from there, I started to become a budding disability campaigner. And I also realized that in my own community, in the South Asian community, which is the second largest here in the UK, that disability had even further outdated perceptions. And I was like, well, who's gonna do anything about that? Because I grew up not knowing a single other disabled person, a Brown disabled person. I grew up, when I saw disability on screen, it was only through charity and fundraising, and through the lens of pity and suffering. And then also, I was getting older, so the job was just becoming a bit difficult for me to do, like on my feet all day. And I wanted to leave whilst I loved it. I didn't want- - Makes sense, yeah. - To get to the point where I could no longer do it and then I was forced to leave. So then, I was looking for a way to really align my passion and my purpose, which was around disability inclusion, and my skillset in project and event management. And I was like, "How am I gonna do that? Jobs like that just don't exist, do they?" Until one day when I was scrolling on LinkedIn and I found a job as a disability project manager. And it's for a telecoms company called Virgin Media. And, you know, have you ever had this where you've been scrolling and you've seen a job, and you're like, "Wow, that's my dream job," and you might apply for it and you think, "Oh, I'll never get it." - Right. - Well, I got it. - That's amazing. - Yeah, and honestly, again, that was a really big deal. It's a really life-changing moment for me. It allowed me to do this as a paid job because otherwise I not only was being a full-time event manager, then I'd be coming home and doing my disability activism on the evenings and weekends when I really should have been resting, and you know, managing my health. So, yeah, that's how I stepped into this space. And then, I also, at university, studied Disability and Deaf Studies, so I had all the theoretical knowledge around, you know, all of the history, the disability movement. So, I had that. Then coupled with my own lived experience and then adding on top of that, all the corporate experience that I gained as well. So, it really does give me quite a unique perspective 'cause I'm super intersectional, right? I tick many boxes, as we all do. But it really gives me, I think, a unique perspective and a unique set of skills and expertise. - For sure, yeah. - And that what's led me to do what I'm doing now. - So, talk about what you're doing now because I mean, this is a fascinating lead up. And I think that, you know, what you've really shown, is somebody who starts off life in a way that's very vulnerable, right? Not just from the obvious physical thing that you described, but just mentally, right? Everything that you went through, you started off vulnerable, that turns maybe a little bit angry? - Yeah. - Yeah? And then you start to embrace it. And I don't know if you're... You're probably not listening to your own story here, but there's definitely a correlation in your story from when you kind of have this epiphany and you run into the social model. Am I saying that right, social model? And it changes the way you think, and also sort of like the joy and the success follow it. And you go from vulnerable, you go from angry to actually empowered and strong. And I think that, you know, you describe the celebrities meeting somebody that they don't expect, that's this powerhouse, you know, organizing and running this entire event. And that's probably, in my mind, right, just thinking through your story, other people start to see that, right? They start to see a strong, powerful individual. And I'm guessing, you tell me, that that starts to overshadow your disability, and people see that person, that strong person over the disability. - Yeah, I think, I think it's a culmination of lots of different things as well because I think I was getting older and you form your view on life, don't you? And as you get older, hopefully, you know, we get a bit wiser. So, that was part of it as well. But you know, it really was the social model, if I'm being honest. That was the catalyst to everything. That was a catalyst to me owning my identity and not wanting to not call myself a disabled person. I am now proudest disabled person you will ever meet, but in addition to that, it helped me to accept my body image because if I didn't accept that I would never have the confidence to do half of what I'm doing. And, you know, as an event manager, I hated public speaking, now, you can't even shut me up. So, I think- - That's good 'cause you're on my podcast. I need you to talk. - But I think it helped me just be less apologetic. It helped me hold others to account. Because I think it's fair to say, like, I'd always taken on the role of being an educator from a young age, within my family, within my community, having to stick up for myself because I was not around people, or community that understood disability. I was really infantilized, to be quite honest. So even, you know, within my own community, or my family unit, I always had to advocate, you know, and then throw into that then, cultural expectations and cultural norms. So, broadly speaking, you know, South Asian women are expected to be submissive, "Just do what you're told. Just get married and have kids." Well, that's just not me, you know? So, and I also have to talk about the fact that although I face a lot of oppression, I have a very palatable version of disability that yes, I have a short stature, but I have clear speech, I'm able to communicate for myself. These things are huge privileges because whilst I'm able to advocate for myself, I know that people will feel a bit less uncomfortable when they talk to me, perhaps compared to some other disabled people. And I'm not trying to pit any of us against each other. I'm just talking about what I know and what my experiences are here. And that's something- - Every disability is different, accommodations are different, the way people react to you are different. Like, that's, I think, an important point just about disability in general, is that no two people face the same thing, need the same thing, accommodate the same way. So, I think it's a very good point you're making. - Yeah. And then, the other final thing is my faith. So, I'm Sikh, I'm Punjabi. I was brought up in a very devout Sikh household. And Sikhism's a relatively new religion. It's only, like about 500 years old, but it's based on the principles of equality, and selfless service, and justice, and activism. And I grew up seeing my parents, you know, fight for what they believed in because Sikhs are a minority in India. I dunno if you can picture this, but you know, there was me going to a special needs school in the week and going to protests in London on the weekend. That was my norm. I thought that's what everybody did. So, I learned a lot from, you know, my community, my faith, and my family. Of course, you know, we all have good bits and bad bits, but I think that's where my optimism comes from. And we have a saying in Sikhism, it's called . It means, "For the benefit of everybody." Because the work that I'm doing now, I'm not doing it 'cause it's only gonna benefit me. I don't want other disabled people to have to go through the challenges that I've had to. I want to remove barriers, so the world's fairer for everybody. So, I think that is a big element of what makes me who I am and why I'm doing what I'm doing as well. - So, say that again. - The saying? - Yeah. - It's. - Okay, and what does it mean? - It means, "For the benefit of everybody." - For the benefit- - "May everybody prosper." So, it's about not being all about yourself. It's about making sure everybody is okay, with you. - I think the really interesting thing about that is that you describe that and you make the great point that what you do, you don't just do for yourself, but you do for all sorts of people with disabilities. And one of the things that we've found, or that has been found when you accommodate for people with disabilities in general, is that you actually inadvertently, right, start ending up doing things that benefit society as a whole. Right, the curb cutout effect. Like in the U.S. with the ADA, it required that we had a curb, that there was like a little ramp part of it, a curb cutout is what it's called, so that a person with a wheelchair could roll up that curb cutout, well, you know, everybody with a roller bag, everybody pushing a stroller. They even did a study. And, like 80-something % of the people that have no reason to use it, go use it, right? So, inadvertently it became a benefit for everybody. Just like a grocery store with a wider door, or whatever. So, I love that saying. And I think that in our world of Accessibility, that you and I kind of, you know, are in all the time, it really has a large, large meaning. So, I'm gonna listen back to this a couple times and see if I can learn how to say that as well as you do. - Yeah, I'll send it to you after as well. - Yeah, that would be great. So, this would be awful if we got this far and we didn't talk about who you are today and all the cool stuff that you do today. I mean, we said at the beginning of the podcast, you're a celebrity. And I did cheat and I listened to your Ted talk a little bit, and you said you didn't wanna speak in public, you used to be nervous about speaking public, and now, like a thousand other things in your life, you've completely overcome that, and it's something that sounds like it brings you joy. So, talk to me about all the really cool stuff that this has led to that you're doing now. - Yeah, sure. So, I now, am an Inclusion and Accessibility Consultant specializing in disability inclusion. So, I work with lots of different businesses, and brands, and organizations, governments, and really help them, like with their Accessibility challenges, or help them on their journey. And I approach my work through a lens that is anti-oppressive and intersectional because if inclusion isn't intersectional, then I just think why is anyone bothering? Because if you're not removing barriers for everybody within that oppressed groups that experiences that, then you're only gonna help the most privileged people within that group. And that's not inclusion. - Right. - And in addition to that, then a lot of people just kept asking me to come and speak, and I was like, "Yeah, sure," you know, I'll just go and turn up, speak and leave. And- - So, how did that feel? Because like, again, listening to your story, it goes from, "We don't want you because we read on your cover letter that you have," to, "Hey, please, please, please come here. How do we get you?" right? People want, now they want you and they want you to show up. Like, come on, that's gotta be just an unbelievable feeling. - It is. And I didn't quite understand how to manage it all at first. For me, like this is my life, this is my story. I've never known anything different. And I can see why it might be motivating and inspiring to other people. I can absolutely see that. But then what I started to realize is people only want me for that inspiring factor. And I'd be like, "Okay, well what are you gonna do now? What action are you gonna take? I've just shared this, this, and this, but what are you gonna do?" - We feel good because we listened to you? - Yeah. - Is there anything that's gonna follow? - I got better things to do. - Yeah. - So now, you know, I'm quite particular with who I work with and for the reason that they might want to work with me, or book me as a speaker. Because what people have to realize is quite often, especially if I'm gonna come and speak, I'm probably gonna be re-traumatizing myself. And the more you do it- - No, that's interesting. - the more you do become desensitized to it, but still, like that's what it is at the end of the day. And if that's the case, then pay me for it as well. So, then I understood that actually this is an income generating opportunity, being a speaker. So then, I did a course and I took that more seriously. And then, I'd always been really annoyed at just the lack of representation, one, at the lack of representation of disabled people, and then the lack of diversity within it as well. So, here in the UK, the data tells us that Black and Asian communities have higher prevalence of disability. But then, when we look at the representation that we have, it's largely of our white British counterparts that are disabled, which is good, we absolutely need that, but it shouldn't just be one opportunity and then the most privileged people get it. If we really gonna represent the true version of society that includes disabled people, like from all different backgrounds, from all different genders, sexualities, ages, race, ethnicities, we're talking about 15 million people. And whilst I, you know, am a regular now, on daytime TV here, it's still hard, it's still difficult, and you're still sometimes made to feel like your face doesn't fit. So, I also wanna say like, it might look really glamorous, like going to all these places hobnobbing with royalty and celebrities, but I leave and I'm still living in an inaccessible society. There still aren't any clothes I can go and buy. I still can't use the public transport. So, and actually that messes with my head even more because I'm in rooms with such powerful people and they're all like, "Yeah, you're really inspiring and you've got a great story," but then I'm like, "Well, what are you gonna do? How are you gonna help us as a community?" So, that's actually quite frustrating, which is why that's led me to creating all of the different social courses that I've created. So, I'm launching an app to help disabled people save money. I feel really passionately about the fact that we as disabled people have to pay so much more to live in a world that isn't designed for us, and we have less, or no choice. Like, that's not cool. So, that's really exciting, but very stressful. And then, I also launched the Asian Woman Festival and the Asian Disability Network. These are communities in safe spaces. Essentially, I just set up all the things that I wish existed when I was younger because I know what that would've meant for me, you know? If I think about the fact that if I hadn't gone to a special needs primary school because I didn't need to go there for my learning needs or, you know, if I had learned about the social model at a younger age, I probably would've been a really different person from a younger age. So, that's what essentially, if I had to sum it up in a nutshell, that's what my mission is. It's to make the world we live in more accessible and inclusive for everybody, but it's to empower disabled people, to make sure disabled people know what the social model is, and know what their rights are. Because a lot of people, you know, people before us have fought so hard for our rights as disabled people, and then we're out here, huge societies of us, and we don't even know how we're protected by them, or how to enact the law. And that's what we need to do. - That's, I mean, you know, again, I think it's just amazing that you were able to embrace everything and turn it around into positive stuff. And, you know, the concept, or just some of the things that you talk about, like you're wonderfully open. Because as somebody who's been in this industry for a long time, there's certain things that I don't think about, like that juxtaposition between "Hey, I'm hanging out with celebrities, I'm hanging out with royalty," yet you can't get on the tube and go home, right? And the frustration that might come from the fact that you sort of have your hands on that level of power, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're moving the needle as quickly as you would like to, you know? And there's just a lot of things, I think, that we don't think about. Tell me a little bit, like, so you said that you're on TV in the UK on a regular basis. Can you tell me a little bit about that show and what that's all about? - Yeah, so I'm on a few different shows. Basically, I like talking. I'm on a lot of shows- - Me too. - that talk about the daily news, or I also present on a show called, "Rip-Off Britain." That's a consumer show. I'm really- - So, these are regular... I guess this is the point I wanted to get to. We're not talking about like, "Oh hey, we're doing a segment of about disability. Come on our show." This is, you're now in a mainstream subject. And the fact that you have a disability is sort of set aside. And the fact that you're a desirable personality in these shows, is what you're doing, yeah? - I'm getting there. Don't get me wrong. I'm really pigeonholed into talking about disability and inclusion issues. - Okay. - And for me, that's a double-edged sword because as you know, like, I want there to be more diverse disability representation, so, I still feel it's important to do that, but equally, it's also difficult then to not just get pigeonholed into that as well. And sadly, that's what their broadcast and media industry do very well. They pigeonhole people. So yeah, as I said it, you know, it all sounds glamorous on the top, doesn't it? But actually underneath it's difficult. You've gotta make difficult decisions and choices and sometimes it might make sense to you, but not to anybody else. So, a bit of both, I do a bit of both. And you know, of course, if there's a way in which I can talk about disability issues, I always will because we don't have that conversation enough. - Compassion about it, yeah. - But I'm glad that I'm able to have it now in a more natural way, and I'm not there just as the token disabled person. - Right. That's great. So, we only have a few minutes left in the podcast, right. - Oh. - Your story's fascinating and I think just, there's so much that we could do a series on you, right? Like, there's so much more that we could talk about. But I think that for me, I really wanted to, I really wanted the story of the person that became who you are. And I think it's a fascinating story. You know, sometimes it's fun to be thought of as inspiring and sometimes it's tiring to be thought of as inspiring, but, you know, it is a very inspiring story in terms of how you took, you know, sort of the hand that you were dealt in life and not easily, not right away, and not, probably without a lot of trial and error, but eventually really turned that into something positive, not just for yourself, but for the disabled community and quite frankly, society as a whole. But I wanna leave all that behind for a minute 'cause there's one thing that you mentioned early on that I wanna circle back to that has nothing to do with any of that. - Okay. - If that's okay with you, right? - Yeah. - Let's forget about all this disability stuff for a minute. You said that you saw Drake in concert, right? So A, how cool was that? So, my wife and I are gonna go see Pink in Boston, right? At Fenway Park, in the summertime. So, it's just amazing to go to these big concerts. So, is that something, like that... Well, what was Drake like, first and then, have you seen other people? Like, is that something that you do? - Yeah! I absolutely love going to concerts, and gigs, and music shows. I'm always on that disabled booking line. So yeah, I've seen Drake- - Take that little advantage if you can, why not, right, you know? - Yeah, I really enjoy that. And I also really love traveling. So, I've been to 41 countries. - Oh man. - But again, like I decided that I wanted to travel, from a young age, like as soon as I was able to afford it, right? Because I am very aware that my condition is a degenerative one, and whatever mobility I have today, I'm not gonna have it in the future. So also, I think a lot of what makes me who I am, is that I'm okay with that and I accepted that from a young age. And you know, a lot of people have said to me, a lot of non-disabled people, they've said things to me like, "I wish I had your life," or, you know, just weird. I was like, "What?" I was like, "You wish you were 3 foot 10 and you were in pain and your bones just broke when you just." And then I realized what they meant. Actually what they meant is they wish they had the courage to live a life that they wanted to instead of a life that they were expected to. Because we all, in some way feel that we need to conform to something. If you're South Asian, there's a lot of that happening, right? And then it struck me, I was like, "Wow." 'Cause I would never sit here and say to somebody, "Oh, I want your husband, and I want your kids, and I want your life." You know, I'd never dream of saying that, so I couldn't understand why people were saying it to me. But also from, like a young age, like I know what it's like to live with a body that doesn't work how you want it to. So, you know, I just wanted to live and I just thought, "Just do it." Like, what's gonna happen? Someone's gonna say, "No." It doesn't matter Get up, try again, do it again. And if that kept happening, then at least I would've known and I would've tried, but if I didn't, I would have always lived with the regret of, "What if?" So, you know, the app that I'm launching, I didn't even realize I was setting up a tech company when I first had the idea. I'm gonna be really honest with you. Like, I'm just putting one foot in front of the other. I don't even know how to use a Mac, but, you know, I felt so strongly about this idea. I know it's gonna be great. But I just thought, well, if all the other entrepreneurs are just making it up as they go along, then I can do that. And I thought if I don't try, I am gonna regret not ever trying. If I try and it failed, fine, I tried, right? So, those are the principles that I live by. I don't wanna live with regrets. Just do it. What's gonna happen anyway? Well, someone's gonna say, "No," Well, I'm used to that, - Right. - you know? And it's just living for now 'cause life's too short. - You know, if we think about a lot of the things that are going on in society today, they really are about being who you are, right? I think it's like a frontier, a social frontier that we're all bumping up against, is how do you do everything that we do every day and be who you are? And quite frankly, people like me, you know, I'm in the United States. I'm not in a... You know, I'm in sort of the privileged group of people, you know, white male, all that kinda stuff. I live my life as who I am and it was easy to do, but in that sense, I'm probably a minority, right? That a lot of other people have struggled to figure out how to live, who they are. And they should just be able to live who they are, right? But I think that what's really interesting to me is how the extreme that you are under pushed you to just fight and live who you are, and that the people that you meet and talk to see that in you so quickly and clearly that they say awkward stuff. - Yeah. - Like, "I wished I had your life." - Yeah. - Like when you said that to me, I was like, "Wait, what? Like, where is this going?" - I know. - And then when you revealed that, it was like, it was just amazing, you know, that what they were saying, is, "You've been able to be authentic with yourself. I wish I could do that." I mean it's unfortunate that it takes an extreme for somebody. Maybe you would've gotten there anyways. Who knows, right? Maybe it's just a part of who you are and it has nothing to do with your disability, or maybe your disability was a catalyst that pushed you there, right? We'll never know. We could never figure that out. But the fact that you go through life with that shining out of you and people going, "Oh my gosh." And they have to look past your disability to say that. They have to seeing you for who you are, for that to spill out of their mouth because like you pointed out, it is so awkward in context that you are making them forget about everything and think about how you're being authentically yourself in order for them to able to say that. I don't know if you've realized that, but that's the epiphany, when you said that, that I had. Like, there's no way, like there's no way I would say that to you. - It's really- - Yeah, I would never dream of saying that to anyone. - So, you have to be burying that, you know, just shining through everything for them to say that, which is amazing, you know? - I think as well, like, disability's still seen as a tragedy even though what the data tells us here in the UK is that 83% of disabled people acquired their condition, or impairment. People just... You know, I've had people say, "Oh, I dunno how I'd manage. I dunno how I'd live. I'd rather be dead," you know? And I just think you just don't know how you're gonna handle something until you're in that situation. Like, I've never known any different. I'm not saying it's easy, but I don't wake up every day hating myself. I don't wake up every day in shock that I'm 3 foot 10 all over again, every day. Right. - You know, you just get on with it. I know what I want out of life and I'm just doing me. And I think if everybody else maybe took that approach a little bit, then it would be cool for them too. - Yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, listen, unfortunately, we have to wrap this up. It was just wonderful getting to know you. Thank you so much for sharing yourself, who you are, with me and with everybody listening. I really appreciate that. Is there any quick sort of last thought that you wanna either, we didn't hit, or you wanna reemphasize, or anything that you'd like to leave with? - Just don't live with regret. Life's too short. So, do what you wanna do. - Well said. I can't think of anything better. Well, thank you so much. And I really appreciate you being on with us and I really appreciate you being so open and sharing with us, and sharing who you are. It's been wonderful. - Thank you. Thanks for having me. - You're welcome. This is Mark Miller thanking, and I'm gonna do it again, Sharna, and reminding you to keep it Accessible. This podcast has been brought to you by TPGI, the experts in Digital Accessibility. Stay tuned for more "Real People, Real Stories" podcasts coming soon.