- [Announcer] Welcome to TPGI's Real People, Real Stories Podcast. Where you'll find interesting and diverse stories from folks working to make the world a more inclusive place. - Hey, welcome to Real People, Real Stories podcast brought to you by TPGI. I'm your host Mark Miller thanking you for helping us keep it accessible. Do us a favor. If you're enjoying Real People, Real Stories podcast share it. Tell someone about it. Hey, even link to it from your accessible website. Thanks everyone for joining us again. It's great to be here. I want to start off by introducing my co-host for the first time, Cori Perlander. Cori and I work together quite a bit and I'm very excited to have her doing this podcast along with me. And then of course, I also want to introduce our great guest today, Kristy Viers. Did I see your last name right, Kristy? - Yes, Viers. - Yes, Viers, okay. Kristy Viers. So welcome, Kristy. How are you? - Thank you. I'm doing pretty good, thanks. How about yourself? - I'm doing great. And I just want to say for all of our excited listeners, when Kristy first came on I was really interested in the, I guess it's a sweatshirt that she has on. And that's a picture of a cat if you can't quite see it and it's pretty cool. It's a big cat head. And I hear that you're a huge cat lover, is that true? - [Kristy] Oh yes, we have three of them. - Three of them? - [Kristy] Yeah. - And they keep you company during the day? - Mmhm, when they're not sleeping. - When they're not sleeping. Which if I know cats is like most of the time. - Yep. - Sleeping, feeding and pet me. That's the cats. - That's the keys, yup. - Yeah, those are the keys. But we're not here to talk about cats with you. You actually did something pretty cool with your iPhone that drew a lot of attention. You want to tell us a little bit about what happened there? - Yeah, it was actually one of the coolest things I think that's ever happened to me honestly. And I will remember it every single day from like here on out. Like it seriously was. Especially, I'm not saying like I've had a horrible life and a lot of people have, but like I've just been through a lot and I think it was one of the things that just, it keeps me going, you know? The fact that it happened to me like that. It was just overnight, like I... Like a couple of my close friends had asked me like how it works. The whole using an iPhone and being totally blind, or if you have some sight, low vision. But they were interested, like if they could just send me a link, like would I be able to open anything? Like if they just sent me an article or anything and I said yeah. Like for the most part as long as like the Accessibility is in place, I should be able to access anything like that. So then when I thought about it and how much that a lot of my sighted peers, as well as just anyone out in the world, I just think like how much do they actually know about the way screen readers work and the other, and a lot of things that the visually impaired community, like how they do things from day to day and stuff. So I just thought what if I just post this little video of me literally just simply explaining like how you can scroll or swipe through a document or your social media or whatever. And then also show like the keyboard, the braille keyboard for an iPhone anyway, the braille screen input mode, how I can type and text and send posts or anything like that using that keyboard because that keyboard was new to me because my boyfriend helped me learn it. And it's just been a godson like ever since I started to use it 'cause it just changed everything. It's like I could type way faster 'cause I know braille and stuff, so. Yeah. - That's awesome. So this is what strikes me about this story, and Cori maybe you can relate, right? Because Kristy, Cori and I spend all day, every day as part of our job talking to people about accessibility, about screen reader accessibility, and you know, all this technical stuff and all this strategy and hey, you're a big company, how do you make your websites accessible and all that. And there's training, right? But you're, like, I love the every day, you know, you're a person. Like I mean we're all regular people, right? - [Kristy] Right. - But you're just somebody who's working through their life. You've got a group of friends, your friends are like hey, we're curious, which by the way, kudos to your friends. Because I think that that sounded like, like what great friends. They obviously sounded like everything was done in a super respectful way and they were genuinely curious and they kind of wanted you to open up your world and show them what it was like. Probably because they're friends and want to know more about you. And then that just sparked this like, almost like innocent idea of like hey, well I don't know if I'll, I don't know if you've revealed that yet, but it's an idea of like hey, let's, maybe I should do something and post it, right? Is that essentially what happened? - Yeah, and I literally just thought, I mean it's just gonna be out there. I didn't expect anything to happen. I posted on my Facebook and I don't have that many friends. I have a lot of family and stuff on there. People I've known for a long time, but then on Twitter I barely know any of that audience except for like I've gotten to know a few people, like from listening to different podcasts that are out there for our community and other communities like visually impaired. You know, like autism and just a lot of different, you know, a lot of different podcasts out there for people with different needs and stuff. Where was I going with that though? - You were just talking about posting the video and kind of like just putting it up there for the heck of it. Not really expecting- - Yeah! - A whole lot and having, yeah. And it doesn't sound like you had like a big deep, same with me, right? You don't have a big deep Twitter following or anything that would cause it to catch on. - And then I actually got to know a few people in the visually impaired blind community after that really well because like we stayed in touch like once they... You know, I just, you know, like I'll be on their podcast or something like that. So there's a couple of people that I've stayed friends with after that, you know, that I have that connection with. So that's kind of cool that came out of it as well. - So Cori, you must use an iPhone as well, right? - I do. I totally do. - And do you have like your friends and family, are they ever like how do you do this? - I was actually admiring your friends, Kristy, 'cause I'm like man, why doesn't anybody else over here want to know what I'm doing? No. I do have some family members for sure. Some friends that really get interested. My husband, he likes technology, so anytime I learn something new I have to show him, like this is really cool, look how much time it saved me. But in general I feel like. We're pretty awesome because we can, you know- - I'm sorry to interrupt you, Cori, but we should say for the sake of the audience. Because I know it can be hard to tell over Zoom that Cori, you're also blind, right? Or very low vision, right? - Oh yeah. - I'm the only, I'm the one, I'm the odd person out here. I'm the one person with sight. We were joking before that they had me outnumbered because I'm the only one who's sighted and I'm also the only guy, so. - Yeah, that's- - They might just pick on me a little bit, you know? Who knows. - [Cori] Double whammy. - Yeah, so go ahead. I didn't want- - That's a good point. I didn't do a lengthy intro, but yes, I have super low vision. I use JAWS and Zoom Text as my go-to technologies and, you know, for my iPhone I use the voiceover. And, you know, I can share that just from my perspective, losing vision rapidly and having to learn new technology in a very short window of time when you're dealing with so many other things. It's quite a task. And so, you know, we have to learn things a different way. But once you get it I think it's really powerful and it allows independence. And that's of course only if things are accessible. But I was just saying we're awesome, meaning that, you know, we were able to adapt and, you know, use technology in a different way that a lot of people don't. And, you know, get to, we may not get to the finish line the same way, but we absolutely do. - So one of the things that's really interesting to me, like just hearing you talk, Cori, and Kristy hearing your story, Kristy I'm gonna make a a guess here and you tell me if I'm wrong. Have you been, were you blind or low vision at birth or have you been that way for a while? Because you said you know braille. And I find that usually means you were at least blind at a young age if you're really proficient in braille. Not always. - That's the case though. - That's the case, so I wonder, it's... - I don't know braille. - Yeah, it's interesting because- - [Kristy] I have a Braille display now too. - [Cori] Awesome. - So it's nice to hook that to my iPad or my phone or something. - So, and what that means is that this, it's not just that you're typing in braille, it's that you can read what's on the iPhone in braille? Is that right? - Yeah, whatever's on your screen. - [Mark] Shows up in braille. - It'll be on the display, yep. - Wow. And that's a little bit different... So just one of the things I wanted to point out just having you both on the podcast at the time is just the difference in like the challenges or whatever, the ways that you have to approach things if you're blind early on in life versus lose your vision over time. - [Kristy] Yeah. - And become blind or lower vision, you know, later in life. And that the use of technology actually shifts because it's almost like learning a language. Like when you're a kid versus an adult, you know? Sometimes it just can take a little bit more or you do something differently. - Oh, I have a question, Kristy. What was your first touch of technology? Assisted technology. What was it and how did you use it? - It might have been the braille light maybe. - Okay. - [Mark] The braille light? - And my braille display that I have now kind of reminds me of that. Like the shape of it and the plastic feel. And the way the dots pop up it reminds me so much of the braille light. It's just way smaller. - Well can you explain what the braille light is? - The braille light was something, it had the six stat keys like you would for braille and you could type on it. And the main function I believe was you could save files, like if you were writing a Word document, and you can just save a whole bunch of files in there. And then you can plug it into a printer and print off your work, so I'd use it a lot in school. - So it was kind of like a Word processor but structured around braille versus keyboard? - Yeah. - And that braille is like refreshable, like they're dots that pop up and down so you can read with it as well as type with it. Oh that's really cool. - And the braille display I have also has buttons just like it so I can type on it as well, like use it as a keyboard. - So it's just an extension of that original technology, it sounds like. It's does even more. Yeah, that's cool. Technology is always evolving. - [Kristy] Yes it is. - So I think this is really cool. We have this world like, you know, that we all use our phones, our technology. But the way that you interact with it is different than the way you, Kristy, the way that you interact with it is different than the way I interact with it For sure. Even different probably than the way Cori interacts with it just because of your difference in experience. And then you have this kind of like just thought out of nowhere to share some of that with whomever's willing to look at your Twitter account and your Facebook account. And even though you don't have this big, you know, it doesn't sound like you spent your life on social media and develop this huge following or anything. It's just sort of a regular everyday few people on it account. It blows up when you post it. - Yeah. - It goes insane. - [Kristy] Yeah. - So what, can you talk to me about like, like do you have any idea how that happened? I mean like was it a few of your friends? - It was literally overnight though. - "Check out my friend" and it went further? Like how did it happen? - I honestly, I don't know. My boyfriend thinks that somebody that is a very well known person may be out there in the tech world or something like that. That maybe they're the ones who started it. Maybe they had a big following and it just took off. I don't, honestly I do not know. All I know is I did the video, it was late, you know. It was like 10 or 11 at night or whatever. - Uh-huh. - And like I remember we're going to bed. And then I woke up the next morning to my boyfriend asking me what is going on with your iPad? And I'm like what do you mean? He's like that thing has been making noise nonstop all morning. And I'm like what? He's like I've been hearing it. It's like doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo like over and over and over, like every, like it was just going crazy. - Like a slot machine. - [Mark] Oh my gosh. - And then I hear it and I'm like what in the world is that? So we look and that's what we figured, then he goes your Twitter blew up. And I was like what? He was like that video went viral. Like people are going nuts. And so I had to actually turn everything off. Like my iPad and my Apple Watch and everything 'cause it killed my battery on my Apple Watch. And like everything. Like I just had to, because it was, and then my boyfriend had to help me go through and answer a bunch of questions that people were asking me 'cause it was so much. it reminded me of like, I get why people that are like famous or people that have like a huge following, why they probably have someone hired to help them with that. - Yeah. - [Mark] Right. - RI was just gonna ask how has your life changed since you posted the video? - So the battery life has changed 'cause it's not as good as it used to be. - Yeah. - But yes. How has your life changed? - It feels really cool. I feel like a whole lot of people saw my face. so it just feels weird and kind of cool. Like wow, that's cool. Like it happens to a lot of people, sure, but it was so unexpected, honestly. It was incredible honestly. - So it's a little- - Everyone knows how it works now. A lot of people know now how that works. - But you feel like you've kind of had a brush with some level of fame? I guess like the Andy Warhol 15 minutes of fame. You've definitely squarely found your 15 minutes of fame. - And maybe it won't be 15, Mike. - [Mike] I was gonna say. - She might keep doing this. - So that was my question. Now that you're a big deal influencer, what next? - I took a break from my YouTube channel for a few different reasons, but I really do want to get back into it, but I just need to get more- - Maybe this the world telling you that you need to get back into it. - How long ago- - [Cori] They want to hear what you say. - Yeah, 'cause when I saw your podcast invite I was like oh my gosh, that's so cool. - See? This is just another consequence of celebrity, right? - I guess. No, just kidding. - You should have seen, the listeners have no idea, the writer that she gave us. We had to separate all the M&Ms out into their different colors. No, I'm just kidding. So how long ago did you post this video, Kristy? - Wow. How many years has it been? Has it been like two or three years now? - Has it? - Yeah, it hasn't been too long, but. - And do you still get traction on it or is it- - Sometimes. Once in a while I'll see people posting it on my Twitter and once in a while it will go up again. Like a whole bunch in one day. Like someone just saw it and decided to post it and then other people started doing it and once in a while it will do that. - It kind of has a re-life. - Revive. - Yeah, a couple waves now and again. And then once in a while it'll be like one or two people or they'll like it or something or they'll say something. And a lot of times I feel bad because sometimes it's languages I don't know. And it's like if I don't know how to translate it. - No, that's interesting that it's really hit different languages. - Yeah. - So did you do any follow-up posts after that initial post? - I did videos on how to use braille screen input for iPad 'cause it's similar to the iPhone. It's pretty much the same thing. So I did that right away after. To explain those how to do it. I actually had a mom reach out to me and told me her six-year-old knows how to do braille screen input now because of me. Like she figured it out and helped him learn it. - So was it, did the six-year-old have a vision impairment or was it just, was it a sighted secure all that was like- - I don't know to the extent where on the spectrum he was. Like if he's totally blind or partially or anything like that, but she just said now he knows how to do it and he's happy to have that, so. - That's awesome. - [Kristy] Like at six, that's pretty good! - That's awesome. So they got some traction, these new video, but not quite the same as that original one. - Yes, not the same at all. - I wonder what it was about that original video. - It was so - I didn't even plan it. Like we just did it. Like my boyfriend just, and I was like I don't even know what I'm gonna say, but here goes, you know? And then I just did it and I was like nervous 'cause I've never done anything quite like that and I'm kind of shy anyway. But yeah. - That's so cool. Did you have a question, Cori? I feel like I jumped in front. - I just really would love to hear, you know, this was an initial stepping or starting point to really just educate the world about, you know, how someone who cannot see uses technology. If you could tell the world right now, like what do you want them to know about you and how you use technology and how they can help? - Good question. - Well. It's a beautiful thing. I love that I can do so much with my phone or iPad and any other screen reader textings. Like just knowing, like Kindle, like being able to use, you know, read books and YouTube and all the, I appreciate the fact that the really strong like company-based like interfaces out there like Kindle and YouTube and Apple's got like their video service where you can, like it's Apple TV+ and stuff, but I just like, at least I noticed their Accessibility is way better as far as like the buttons working and all of the, like everything, all the elements in the site or the app, you know? - What do you mean by buttons not working? Can you tell the audience what that means? - Well I'm not very good at all the technical part except I know that the screen reader needs... it needs somebody to go through like auditing or like going through and making sure that they're using what they need to make this site user friendly with the screen reader. So it's like that every time someone makes a webpage or an app or anything like that, of course maintenance goes into it and so you have to keep it accessible like every time there's an update too. - Yeah, you have to label the buttons. - [Mark] What's your experience? - I just wish - yes, you have to label all the buttons and all the elements and headings and all the structure in your site to work with a screen reader and it's so important because I run into it where they don't work. A button is not labeled correctly so it just says button or it, you know, you push it and it's like it doesn't work. I don't understand that. - Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you is like what's your experience when you run into something like a button that doesn't work? Like how does that affect your- - Sometimes I turn on voiceover and I try to use it like that and it doesn't always work. It's frustrating. It makes me very, it messes up things like I missed half of an appointment yesterday because of it, you know? - And what happens is you run into this button and you know there's a button there? There's just nothing to convey what that button does? - Yeah, it won't click. So it's- - That happened to me last night on an app. I know exactly what you're talking about. - It's just frustrating and... Yeah, so there's a definitely a- - It stops you in your tracks. - It does. - And I think today with the technology where it is, there's possibilities for it to be accessible. So just getting the word out and, you know, educating people on what that looks like. - Like I wrote in a post yesterday, I know that this isn't even a thing that could ever happen, but I just wish sometimes that there was no need to make app accessible. Like I wish that the framework just worked with whatever the screen reader- - [Cori] Never say never. - [Kristy] Huh? - [Cori] I said never say never, maybe. - That's a really interesting thought, right? And it's, I think it's possible, but it's possible in. Like policy, in attitude, because no app works until somebody builds it and makes it work. And it could have a bug in it that affects everybody. So you have to look out for- - That's a very good point, yup. - And improve it, you know what I mean? So it's just a matter of going like hey, we're concerned about a person who can see, who can use a keyboard and a mouse or who can see their phone and see the touch screen and all that. We're concerned about whether or not it works for them. We just need to also be concerned whether or not somebody who's only relying on hearing and touch and is using a screen reader or maybe plugging in a braille display or something like that. It just needs to work there too. Like it's almost an extension versus, you know, and I think that's where a lot of, I think you bring up some really good points 'cause I think a lot of people think of it very separately and it's like no no no, it's just an extension of the user experience you're trying to create. - Yeah, and I know for Apple they've made screen... What is it? It's like a recognition thing? Screen recognition? - Mmhm. - And when you enable it, it helps with some of the unlabeled elements like buttons and just different things. On a site it will- - [Mark] Some of the screen readers are getting smarter. - An image, like a visual, yeah. - But sometimes it doesn't work the greatest because it still I think relies somewhat on the interface, you know? I don't know. So it doesn't always work reliably. And so it's like I get, I bet some people are out there like well they have that cool new feature in their, you know, with Apple where they, it'll tell them stuff that might not have a label, but I feel like it doesn't matter. Like you should never just assume that the screen reader is gonna be able to just help where there isn't, you know, I just wish more people would put more effort into making sure that we're just as much of a priority being, those of us that use a screen reader, as anyone else, you know? That we're not like oh yeah, we should include them now. Oops. - Yep. That that's well said, and again, you know, Kristy, what I really love about this is that Cori and I are always kind of marred down in the business and technical details of all this. And you're a person that lives outside of that world that's just living your life. And you have, I'm gonna call it like a very innocent approach to this. You're like I just need to use my phone, right? - Yeah! Seriously though, that's literally it. - And I wish everybody would make it a priority and it really, you're very, for me who's always caught up in this, just humanizes it very nicely where it's like look, here's this person, you know? Sitting on their couch. Just using their phone like everybody in the world wants to do. And one, kudos to you for sharing because I think that the awareness that that brings is staggering. Especially when you get the viral nature of something like that one video. - And that's how I kinda learned more about how it works with like interfaces and like the way those actually make their sites accessible, like I learned that more about how important it is and how... Like I had, you know, once in a while they'd reach out to me like somebody, like was wondering about their website or something and I would like check it for them as much as I could and like, you know, and let them know like it works really well. I'm not finding any issues or maybe there is an issue, you know? - Yeah. - But just, I'm glad that like people out there that do that kind of work that are, I forget what you call them, like, just very good with computers and that's all they do is design apps and stuff. I'm glad that maybe they saw the swiping and all the ways that maybe I- - Absolutely. - Was able to show so then they're like oh, okay. So we now we get more of an idea how that works for somebody. - Yeah. - It's all awareness, Kristy, right? And I think that that's what you brought to the table here is for a group of people that may not have known before and now they know, you know? - [Cori] My take - yeah, go ahead. - I was gonna say to me that's kind of like the beginning of that wish you made. Like I wish they didn't have to think about accessibility. The flip side of that is if everybody just understands accessibility and prioritize it they don't have to think about it. It's just part of the way that they develop something. And it starts with that kind of awareness that you created through that one video. I'm sorry Cori, I sort of- - No, no, this is a fun conversation. I was just gonna say that, you know, the awareness brings knowledge and now knowledge is power. And I think for the most part, you know, humans mean, you know, they want to do well. They don't know what they don't know, right? People don't know what they don't know. And when you show a software developer how to swipe, you know, and they realize hey, I can take just one extra step and that's gonna make so many people's lives more fulfilling, more independent. Just a better user experience. Let's hope that that's what will just continue to grow through people like yourself, Kristy. Just getting it out there. Making it. - I actually did DoorDash for the first time the other day. - Wait a minute, what? Oh, yourself. I'm like wait, you drove a car? That is dangerous. - Yeah! - She didn't go to work for DoorDash. She was hungry, Cori. She was hungry. - Okay, I'm like well we have a problem here. - But the good news is she was able to do it. - Hey, driverless cars, maybe one day. - I was gonna say did you get one of those cars that drive you already? - So I, you know, I think that you make a really good point, Cori, about people wanting to do it and I can remember, this was about 10 years ago. I had gone to a technical, like a small local technical conference and we brought, we actually were running the conference and we brought a bunch of different kind of accessibility things and one of them was we just had a computer there with a screen reader hooked up to it. And this was for a group of developers, like technical developer people that were a part of this group that were coming to this. And I can remember one of the UX designers, the user experience designers, sitting down like oh, what's this? And putting on the headphones which was then playing JAWS. And him navigating the web going to some of his own things that he had developed. And just being excited like a kid in a candy store. And he peeled the headphones back and turned to us and said "I had no idea people were trying "to use my software this way." And he was a convert at that point. He was like, his job was user experience and he wanted every user to experience his software in a great way, that's what his job was. All he needed is the awareness, right? The same type of awareness that, Kristy, you brought to a bunch of people through an accidental viral video, you know? So I think that that's, you know, your point's well taken, Cori, that a lot of people really want to do that and they want everybody to be able to have the same experience. They just need the awareness. - Understand it, yeah. - [Mark] Yeah. - Love it. - So Cori, do you feel inspired by Kristy here? Are we gonna see a bunch of videos coming out? - The difference is I am not an expert assistive technology user, so yeah, I could show them the slower paced version of it. But that's super cool. - Yeah, I'm sure that that'll change for you soon. Maybe you and Kristy get together and she gives you pointers and tips. - There we go. - [Kristy] That'd be fun with friends. - Wouldn't it? - I will definitely follow up with you after this. - So we're coming to the end here, but is there anything that either one of you want to want to say that we haven't gotten a chance to say or just reemphasize before we say bye to everyone? - I just look forward to the future and what it holds. And I hope that it includes more accessibility on the web. That it gets, it just keeps growing and getting better, you know? So we don't run into so many issues all the time. - We need to put you on a rooftop so you can just scream that. - I was gonna say ditto! I couldn't say it better. - We couldn't say it better. So Kristy, if people want to find this video how do they do that? - I'm on Twitter at, it's @Kristy, K-R-I-S-T-Y, underscore Viers. It's V-I-E-R-S. I'm also on Facebook. Just Kristy Veers. I believe it says like Rochester College and some stuff about me. It'll say on there that I, if you type my name, if you put kristyviers.com it'll, that's another way to access my YouTube channel 'cause it's just on its own little webpage thing. - Nice. And we'll make sure that we put all that stuff in the podcast notes so if you guys want to follow Kristy and- - And I'm on YouTube of course. - And you're on YouTube, so, you know, maybe this podcast is your next step- - Motivator now. - To greater fame, so you might wanna start getting some videos out there for your fans. - Yeah, I probably should do that, huh? - [Cori] You can send this video out. - We'll be looking for them. All right, any parting words, Cori? - Thanks to everyone that is building and expanding their digital accessibility efforts. And like Kristy said, it changes lives. Not just for individuals using assistive technology, but their families too, so it touches so so many people. More than a lot of people realize and just want to keep the message going. - Excellent. Well thank you both. Appreciate both of you. And Kristy, thanks for being on the podcast and sharing your story. - Thanks for having me. - You're welcome. It's so cool, it gives us all hope that maybe we can become famous influencers like you someday. - [Cori] Yeah. With just a simple video, unsuspecting video. Well this is Mark Miller thanking Kristy and Cori and reminding you all to keep it accessible. - [Announcer] This podcast has been brought to you by TPGI. The experts in digital accessibility. Stay tuned for more Real People, Real Stories podcasts coming soon.