Speaker 1: Welcome to TPGi's Real People, Real Stories Podcast, where you'll find interesting and diverse stories from folks working to make the world a more inclusive place. Mark Miller: Hey, welcome to Real People, Real Stories Podcast brought to you by TPG Interactive. I'm your host, Mark Miller, thanking you for helping us keep it accessible. Do us a favor if you're enjoying Real People, Real Stories, share it. Tell someone about it. Hey, even link to it from your accessible website. Mark Miller: So welcome, thank you for listening. I want to introduce right away, first of all, Marissa, our producer. Welcome once again to the podcast. And then I also want to introduce Preston and Preston, I'm going to let you tell the world your last name. I want to say Radtke. Preston Radtke: All right. Mark Miller: Is that right? Preston Radtke: Yeah. My last name is kind of a pain. It's spelled R-A-D-T-K-E, so it's naturally very confusing sometimes. So it's pronounced Rad-key, so you're like describing a key that is radical. Mark Miller: That is radical. Marissa Sapega: Radtke, okay. Mark Miller: You [crosstalk 00:01:05] that's how you've been walking down the street and you see a key and you're like, "That is a rad key." Marissa Sapega: It's actually more like a hotkey, like on a video game, like, "Don't touch that! That's the rad key. That'll get all your power out in blend like that. You can't touch that key." Preston Radtke: Preston Hotkey is a much better sounding name than the Radtke, actually. Marissa Sapega: Ooh, that sounds like it- Mark Miller: I think you should go with that. You should go with that, maybe I should reintroduce. Welcome to the podcast, I'd like to introduce everyone to Preston Hotkey. Preston Radtke: That's right. Marissa Sapega: Trivia, press it that hotkey. Mark Miller: So Preston, thank you for joining us. First of all, and welcome to the podcast. I want to get in right away into what you do, because I think that we have a lot of different people on this podcast and what you do really directly relates to what TPG Interactive does. We actually help people make the web more accessible, right? So it's a very technical, programmatic coding, kind of thing. And you actually teach a class called "Introduction to IT and Web Accessibility." So can you tell us a little bit about your job? Where do you teach this class? What made it come about and all that good stuff? Preston Radtke: Yeah. So technically it's a part-time job, I'm a part-time lecturer at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey. My full-time job is also at Rutgers just a web accessibility specialist. But it's an undergraduate course, it's currently a special topics course, but it's in the process of being added as, getting that elusive course number. Marissa Sapega: Ooh, exciting. Preston Radtke: It is exciting. And it's traditionally populated by juniors and seniors. And it came about on a whim because when I started at Rutgers about probably two and a half years ago, as an accessibility specialist, I casually mentioned to my boss that I'd love to teach someday because I had a master's degree, I had the credentials for it, but I just didn't have the experience. I was only like 24 at the time. He said, "Well, we do a lot of work with the ITI program." Preston Radtke: That's Information Technology and Informatics, got to get that right, and that's the program that my classes in. And he said, "We do a lot of work with them. So they're definitely familiar with accessibility. So maybe that's something that maybe you could pitch to them and teach down the road." So few weeks after that, my boss, he also teaches them, pro-teach as a project management class, he orchestrated a meeting with the chair and then I basically talked about my vision for the course. And then the proceeding two months or so I just worked with an instructional designer to build the course. Then we are on our fifth semester right now, so it's- Marissa Sapega: Wow. Mark Miller: Wow. Preston Radtke: ... a lot of fun. Marissa Sapega: Exciting. Mark Miller: That's great. So what's the feedback from the students? We have a knowledge bias, I think here in our industry where we really understand the importance of accessibility. We have the fortune to either be people with disabilities or be around people with disabilities, so we really are don't just understand the need, but are in the middle of it, really see it. How did the students react to this? Do they come in really thinking like, "Oh, what's this course?" Or are they actually driven by a desire and a need to understand web accessibility? Preston Radtke: Yeah. So truth be told, I give my students a lot of credit for their honesty whenever I ask them, why they took the class, 90% of them say, "Well, I needed to graduate" or "It seemed like an easy class." So a lot of them don't really come into the course knowing much about accessibility, it's great in one sense that kind of a blank canvas, but the buy-in is really great, actually. And we do it in a systematic way. So we split the course up into two, I'd say overarching modules. So the first half of the course, the first module deals with disability etiquette and customer service. So we don't even touch testing or remediation. We just touch on nature of disabilities, models of disability, how to interact with individuals with disabilities, lots of exposure to assistive technologies. Preston Radtke: I have access to like screen readers and tactile graphic, things like that. And they get to play with those. Their favorite class is, so I volunteer with the CNIB, which is a guide dog school in New Jersey and there's a puppy raising group on campus. So one class we talk about, different laws and we also obviously talk about service dog laws and other ways that disabled or people with disabilities travel. So I actually bring in some puppy raisers from the club, so the students can, it's a stress relief to be perfectly honest, but it also makes accessibility seem a bit more well accessible, I guess. Yeah, it makes it seem less- Mark Miller: Tangible. Preston Radtke: ... menacing. Yeah. Mark Miller: Tangible and furry. Preston Radtke: Exactly, and that's also my favorite class too. And then the second half that's when we talk about actual testing, and a little bit of web development, and how to build different accessible experiences. But the first half of the semester is meant to be easier, meant to ease them in and just to demystify, what people may think of accessibility right off the bat. Marissa Sapega: Preston, I have a question. Before I started at TPG, a [inaudible 00:06:50] game to it meant this, but I didn't even realize that blind people or people with low vision could really access the internet. So are your students more well, are they more well versed in this? Are they aware that people with disabilities use the internet or is it kind of like... Preston Radtke: I think they're aware, they just don't know how, or they've never had to think about it before. A few times when I've talked to the students about how different individuals, disabilities access the internet, it almost feels like, "Oh yeah, I figured they did, but I just didn't know how." So it's more of a, you know the end result, they don't know how they get there though. Marissa Sapega: Got it. Mark Miller: So just being a web accessibility tester engineer, however you want to label it, there's not a lot of you guys in the world, right? So how did you stumble upon this as a profession to begin with? Preston Radtke: Sure. So when I was in college, I initially was for my undergrad. I was a double major in public relations and creative writing. And consequently, I took a job as an alternative media conversion specialist at my school's adaptive tech lab. And then... sorry, my dog's getting away here. So then I decided to stick around for grad school because I was offered a graduate assistantship managing that lab and tuition was paid for, and I frankly didn't know what else to do with my life. Preston Radtke: So I went to grad school for emerging media, which actually focuses a bit more on user experience design, kind of an HCI. And then while I was a graduate assistant, that's when I actually did a bit more of the testing and the auditing as opposed to more of the file conversion. And then I liked that a lot because it seemed very altruistic. And as someone who has a disability, it was a way for me to give back, impact a community that directly touches me. So then when I was done with grad school, I figured that I should actually see if I can make some money in the industry, and then I was landed this job at Rutgers. And then shortly after that, that's when the part-time teaching came about. Marissa Sapega: That's fantastic. Mark Miller: So what I want to ask you now, a lot of people may not realize this, but when we start the podcast, I have very little information on the people that we talk to, right? So I have a basic idea of what you do, but we never talked about your disability beforehand, right? Preston Radtke: Yeah. Mark Miller: So I've got a couple of questions for you really, so I'm assuming that you have a vision disability, is that correct? Preston Radtke: Yeah. Mark Miller: Yep. Okay. And how did that come about? Is it something from birth or was it degenerative over time? Preston Radtke: I was born with it. Mark Miller: Born with it? Okay. And is it, are you low vision or are you completely blind? Preston Radtke: I guess, well, it'd be illegally blind. I have some color contrast on the corners of my eyes, but I don't have enough where I could walk down the street without a chain or a service animal. I wouldn't really recognize anyone, but I can see some contrast. Mark Miller: Okay. And your dog is obviously one of the service, like a service dog? Preston Radtke: Yes. Mark Miller: Yep. Great. So when, I'm asking this question because this is really interesting to me, because I had a class when I was long time ago when I was in college. And it was a theater class and there was a gentleman named Dave Richmond and a woman named Susan Goldman who taught the class and Dave is completely blind. And he was known as a stage director and he was actually known for how visually impactual his stage direction was, which I always found really interesting, but it was a fascinating class because not only was it a great theater class, I mean, both of these people were just passionate about the theater in general, but he was very open about his disability. And I learned a lot at a young age about that prepared me for things like this. So how do your students, aside from the content of the class, how do your students react when they walk into a classroom with a professor who's completely blind? Preston Radtke: They've been pretty mature about it, I guess, sometimes we're all virtual now, but when we were live the few times I would have asked for assistance, maybe finding a plug or something, there would always be a student to come up there and just help me find something. I've been very lucky, I haven't had any very disruptive students yet. I flat out tell them that the first day of class I might be like, please don't be disruptive. I obviously can't tell if you're texting or not. But if you are, I mean, you're probably in missing content, so that's on you, just do it in such a way it's not distracting to other people. And I think they just appreciate that honesty. And I always, I don't like to highlight my disability, but I want them to feel comfortable so that they don't have to tiptoe around it. Mark Miller: Tiptoe around it, yeah. And then, so do you find that there's a natural curiosity where you will have students come up after our class and say, almost like Marissa was talking about with the, "I didn't realize blind people could access the internet." Do you have people come up to you and say, "Hey, I've never met somebody who's blind before. How do you do this? How do you do that? What's this like, what's that like?" Preston Radtke: Yeah. Sometimes not as much as I initially thought there'd be. I think there might maybe because the students are shy. I don't know, or they're just very well-informed, but I do get that on occasion. But typically we do try to just explain, that many people with disabilities just live an aim to live lives just like everyone else. So I think some students take that to heart and they just accept that that's what happens. But certainly there have been some instances where a student may walk up to me and say, "Could you maybe tell me how you learn, how to cut a steak or something?" Or "What you do if you're walking down the street with your cane and you find a post and there's a sign that's overhang that you don't see or something like that." I mean, I try to encourage questions like that. Mark Miller: Yeah. I think it's important because I think that the context that you give as a person with a disability supports the content of the class, especially if you have that open attitude, it's not just like, here's this theoretical subject that we're talking about. It's a subject that's particularly important to you. So what do you find, or like the most important things that when it comes to web accessibility content that the students are walking away with? Because I would imagine that you're not teaching a group of people who are going to walk away and be accessibility testers, but more people who are going to walk away and remember this experience and hopefully bring it in at one degree or another. Preston Radtke: I think probably the most resounding thing that my students come away with is just how universal accessibility can be and is aimed to be. So if you think about like the curb cut effect, many times I'll talk to them about certain accessibility features that have become adopted by the wider population. And that kind of, again, demystifies it and makes it, normalizes accessibility in their mind. Just to make them see that in the end, people who are disabled and people who aren't use many of these same functions for their own specificities. Mark Miller: Right, that's interesting. So when you said curb cut effect, I knew exactly what you were talking about. Because we've used the curb cut example, I'm in the same situation you are pressed and we're all get on the phone with somebody quite often. And it's the first time they've really run across anything. So, I mean, I technically have disabilities, but nothing is a minor, all hidden, right? It's nothing as obvious is somebody with a vision disability, using a cane or having a service animal. So I'm often having to explain to people how, wait a minute, accessibility benefits everyone, right? It's a very difficult concept, and we use the curb cut out all the time, but I like how you actually have a full on label for it. Is that your label or is that something that somebody else or title I should say- Preston Radtke: Well, I actually, it's not my label. But I think one of my colleagues at Rutgers said it in passing, so I'm in charge of delivering accessibility trainings for our team. So if someone just said it in passing and me, "I kind of liked that. I think I'll throw that in our training." Mark Miller: Yeah, I'm stealing it by the way. Preston Radtke: Oh, you can steal it. Mark Miller: I'm going to steal it and use it. I think it's a good blog article title, right? The curb cut effect. Marissa Sapega: So I think we do, and so I work for the marketing department along with sales, with Mark. And a lot of the times we aim to position accessibility as a convenience, because if you are creating a product that is intuitive for as many people as possible to use, it's going to be very convenient, very easy to use for someone who doesn't have a disability. So the curb cut is one of those things that is convenient, and just because it was intended for someone with a disability doesn't mean that it's not a great product for everyone. So the idea is to divorce the misconception that there's an accessible product and then other products, because in actuality, they're all the same product, it's just a better product because everybody can use it. Mark Miller: And by the way, I'm sure the listeners are following, but just in case they aren't, when we're talking about the curb cut effect, what we're talking about is the fact that curb cuts were put, curb cuts are the areas in the sidewalk that has a small cutout in a ramp, right? Meant for a wheelchair to be able to get up. But I know when I was pushing my kids around in a stroller, I would head for the curb cut because it's much easier to get the stroller up and over it. And even just shopping cart coming out of... you got a ton or you got boats. Preston Radtke: Or luggage. Marissa Sapega: Well, there's so many. I mean, there's bikers, skateboarders, when you're carrying luggage, so many instances where a curb cut is just so helpful. And it's such a- [crosstalk 00:18:06] Mark Miller: People are all into the curve, but... Marissa Sapega: What? Mark Miller: Is it the skateboarders, just all on? Everybody else on. Talking about people who were cool before the podcast, so that would be, they're too cool for the curb cut. Preston Radtke: The other thing is, even in the... So for someone who may have visual impairment or may have another kind of motor disability, finding that curb cut will line them up directly with that crosswalk. So it'll prevent them from veering into the traffic or a way to it. Mark Miller: Never even thought about that. So speaking of the curb cut effect, right? Which we've now coined, right? Someone- [crosstalk 00:18:47] Marissa Sapega: You heard it here first folks. Preston Radtke: You heard it here first. Mark Miller: Curb cut effect, when it comes to web accessibility, Preston, what would your favorite curb cut effect be? Or the thing that you think stands out the most as a curb cut effect when you're applying accessibility to a website? Preston Radtke: So the first I'd like to lead with is using semantic HTML or HTML5 in the sense that your content becomes a bit more search engine optimized. Because from a business standpoint, if you're developing something on the web, you traditionally want eyes on it, you want attention. And here you go, if you develop web content with these practices, you're not only making it possible so that maybe 10% to 15% of your user base could interact with it, but you're also potentially increasing money or revenue to your organization, or just attention. Mark Miller: That's a good one. Marissa Sapega: Yeah. We actually did a webinar, I guess it was about a year ago on the intersection between SEO and accessibility. And in the Venn diagram, there is quite a lot of overlap. So it's really, I mean, I think that Google has made great strides to ensure that an accessible experience is some of the factors they consider in the ranking. Mark Miller: Well, and that and the Google search engine is essentially a blind use. A lot of people don't think about that, but the Google crawler doesn't advise, it relies on that same semantic structure and alternative tax and things like that, that a person with vision disability would. And I think the other, to extend your point, Preston, and I think that's a great one. And one of the things for me is that I love it when people use semantic structure in a Word document, and a lot of people don't, right? They want to have a- Preston Radtke: It's overlooked, yeah. Mark Miller: ... bold, large version of the font or something like that. But when you use semantic structure, the Word program itself is like a blind user, right? Now, all of a sudden, Word can look at that document and say, "Well, geez, here's a table of contents or if you want to navigate the document, I can give you a navigable structure." But if you don't have the semantic markup, then you can't do any of that. I also think, like one of my favorite curb cut examples is color contrast, especially now that we have responsive design. Mark Miller: People don't realize how often proper color contrast ratios, help people who maybe stepped out of their car into the bright sunlight and all of a sudden on their mobile device, that glare from the sun is reducing contrast across the board. So if you have stuff that has high contrast, persons still going to be able to utilize whatever the application, the program or whatever it is. That's a big one or even just like I got open windows behind me here. Eventually they're going to stream across my monitor, and I'm going to have a little contrast for a second. Temporary situations that mimic people with disabilities. Preston Radtke: I also talk a bit about closed captions. So even for individuals who may not have a hearing impairment at all, it's just another delivery method. Maybe they don't learn best through... Maybe they absorb the content better through reading it. There are certainly learners like that. Marissa Sapega: I actually look closed captions. I use them all the time. [crosstalk 00:22:20] Mark Miller: Yeah. People learning foreign languages will watch stuff in the language you're trying to learn. And they'll use the closed captions, either translated or not to learn that. And then the famous example is that sports program that's playing on the other side of the bar, in the loud crowded bar, you're using those closed captions, which were put there for somebody with a disability, but now you're using them to be able to consume that content in that situation. Mark Miller: So speaking of content, I'm really curious. It sounds like you have a really interesting two part content, right? And I think, in my opinion, I'd love your approach because I do think that appreciating people with disabilities and better understanding people with disabilities really lens, sets the stage for the motivation to learn the second part, which is actually how to do the coding. So how did you decide, I'm sure you can't show them everything, right? So how did you come up with your course content? Preston Radtke: Well, that's a good question. How did I come up with that? Honestly, it was organic. It was honestly what jumped to my mind, I was imagining if I had to train an intern and what did they need to know strictly for the second half of the semester? Because if I was trained intern, I wouldn't spend that long. Well, probably wouldn't have that much time to train them on the etiquette and all that kind of history of it all. Preston Radtke: But so I just have, if we're as hypothetically hiring an intern, I asked myself what were the key things that I want to teach them if they're an intern in my department at the time. So that would include, running some basic one-page scanners, how to look for different accessibility functions within digital documentation, and how to provide measured accessibility, remediations or solutions. Obviously that's dependent on the technical level of the student, because we have some students that are, basic HTML, some of them know JavaScript. So it runs the gamut, so you can have a... depends on the semester. Mark Miller: So you said you've been running this for five semesters, which is fantastic. Have you had any students come back and contact you or revisit you and say, "Hey, I took this course just on a whim, but it really has helped me out in my professional career." Preston Radtke: Yeah, sort of. So this program, it's linked with our internship program actually. So within, this is for my full-time job. So the IT accessibility office at Rutgers, we have a team of four full-timers, and then each semester we have a full-time intern from the department and we don't require that they take the IT accessibility course, but it becomes very evident that they have. So sometimes I'll advertise the internship in the class and then they'll apply for it, and that's how they'll learn about it. And then they'll, because it's helping me out in the end, it's helping our team, it's taking the load off of us. Preston Radtke: And we've had one of our interns say that when she was applying for jobs this semester afterwards that having that experience on her resume, both taking the class and being able to say that I was an intern within the Rutgers IT accessibility office, set her apart in the field that she went into just because of there, obviously not as many applicants with that skillset. Mark Miller: So I'm going to tell you right now, I'm going to speak, if it's all right, Preston, I'm going to speak directly to your students. Preston Radtke: You can speak directly to them, I'll allow it. Mark Miller: You'll allow it, thank you. Thank you very much. I want to make sure I had permission first. There's a lot of people who can code, there's a lot of people who can do HTML out there, right? It's a pretty, it's a great skill set. The world needs it, right? I think everybody's, there's plenty of jobs out there for those people. But when you know accessibility, the need for accessibility is getting greater and greater and greater and greater, and companies are facing bigger and bigger challenges where they have to manage and integrate accessibility into their software development life cycle. If you can walk through the door with experience, or if your resume shows up with that experience, it's starting to become a huge differentiator out there in the market. Mark Miller: So I think that, you might have this quiet little class with its first five semesters out there, but it could be one of the most important things that somebody who's, wants to be anywhere really within a technology department. Even if you're an accessibility SME, and you're setting up the program, you don't even have to be the person doing the code. But if you have that experience, it's going to set you apart. And really, it could be the difference between somebody picking you and somebody else. Preston Radtke: Right. And they're so in demand now, especially with everything going virtual, I mean, I don't know if you look at just job boards over the past year, there's so many more accessibility jobs. They're just popping up at- Mark Miller: Absolutely. Preston Radtke: ... consulting firms, at in-house groups. So there's a lot out there. Mark Miller: Yep. And people can't find the people they need for accessibility because there's a deficit. So if you have the experience or you have that within your education, it's going to be fantastic. And I think that they should send part of their paycheck directly to you. Preston Radtke: Well, yes. That goes without saying. Mark Miller: That's why you're doing it, right? Preston Radtke: That's right. What makes you think they haven't been? Mark Miller: I don't know. I don't know how it works, but good for you. That's excellent. Any standout stories with students or anything that you want to share before we wrap up? Or somebody who's really surprised you or anything? Preston Radtke: Not really, it is very fun too. So one of the biggest assignments I have them do is on their smartphone or on their Mac or PC, download or activate or utilize some accessibility function via changing color, contrast, on a captions, whatever. A lot of them use, after you screen readers, and it's very amusing time reading their response paper. And I can just like read and feel the frustration emulating from the document being like, "I tried to open my text messages and it just wouldn't do it. I finally slapped it twice and it finally opened." And then they're like, "And then I realized, you actually have to touch it twice." And then sometimes later on, they'll say, "Oh, it actually says double tap. I never realized." So just the different light bulb moments. Mark Miller: I don't suggest this for your students, Preston. In fact, if they could stop listening for just a minute while I relay this story, that probably would... But I have heard of cases where people use the screen reader function to do things like listen to text messages in class because they can put an ear pod in their ear, and then they don't have to look at their phone to navigate, right, if they get good with it. And they can actually go through and utilize their phone and read text messages and stuff like that through the screen reader while they should be paying attention in a class. Preston Radtke: Well, Mark, as you know, that wouldn't work because I'm blind and we have the best hearing in the world. Mark Miller: So in your class, maybe somebody else's class that might work. Preston Radtke: Yeah. But not here, because it's part of that that's super natural way about us blind people. Mark Miller: Yeah. The guy who actually started this podcast years and years ago, a gentleman by the name of Mike. Well, he and I started this podcast back in 2013. So he's my first co-host ever, he actually used that trick. I don't know about in class or anything, but he was a accessibility engineer, right? Like yourself, but he was sighted. And he said that he used the accessibility screenreader feature on his phone to listen to messages and stuff like that. It looks undetected when in public. Preston Radtke: That's smart. Mark Miller: So there you go, try it, just not in Preston's class. Preston Radtke: That's right. Do it any other class, I don't care, just not mine. Mark Miller: Not just your class, very good. Well, hey, thank you for [crosstalk 00:31:04] is there anything else that you want to add before we go? I mean, I really, I think you're doing a great service to these young folks who are coming up and preparing themselves for a... Preston Radtke: Yeah, I love teaching the class. I love my full-time job as an accessibility specialist, but it's fun to see the other side of higher education with crest accessibility. And if there are any fellow accessibility teachers out there, I'd love to swap stories or go over techniques because there's a lot of those for every other subject, but not accessibility. Mark Miller: Sounds like a forum that needs to be started. Preston Radtke: Exactly, right. Mark Miller: Yeah, that's good. Any major plans for upgrading the course or is that what you're trying to work on? Preston Radtke: Not yet. I'm still, this just involves teaching in general, I've had to iterate a bit since when I was in person, like my first half of the semester is a lot more exposure based. So like we'd bring the dogs in, I'd bring in different forms of assistive technology or tend to be more hands-on interactive. Second since we've been virtual, it's been a bit tougher to do that. So just trying new ways as all teachers are to stimulate learning in the virtual environment. Mark Miller: Do you have them download a screen reader onto their personal systems and stuff or... Preston Radtke: I did this past semester, typically I would just have them access. I have them like partner up with someone who may have a Mac or... I try to not make them download if they have something with something that's already built in. But this past semester I required it. Mark Miller: Changed your mind. Preston Radtke: Yes, exactly. Mark Miller: All right, thank you. Preston Radtke: Of course, thank you. Mark Miller: Yeah, we appreciate you joining us and keep it going. I mean, keep building the class. That really is one of the things that we see missing is people getting this information in education. There's certainly out there, I think like RIT has a program, you can find it, but it's not real common inside of this curriculum pathway. Preston Radtke: The thing that I really want to teach them is like, you can learn how to code excessively or you can learn a lot of different accessible functions, but I think it's really important to not learn to be empathetic, but to be exposed to the human side of accessibility and see the impact. And that taps into their, the moral side of the students and that bridges the gap between someone who, they're aware of accessibility, they'll do it, but they may do it half-heartedly because they really don't care about it or they don't know what to care about it. But when they see the impact that it has on people that makes them, that inspires them more. Mark Miller: Yeah. I think that's a great point. And for sure the people who have family members or whatever, and they really understand the importance. And that's us, by the way. When I have a client who starts to make their website accessible and it's something, an e-commerce site or something like that, it's really important to me because I have friends that rely on that. I know that my friends are now going to be able to more easily or successfully access that content, perform the tasks, you make a purchase, whatever the case is. So you're absolutely right. I think that that's the true bridge is when people have empathy and it's not hard, right? It's not hard to give them empathy if they just have a little bit of exposure. And I think that is probably the greatest value you're passing on there, and to bring it back around that is really the value that one of the big values I got out of my course when I was in college, had nothing to do with accessibility, but it was just taught by somebody who was blind. Mark Miller: And I got to experience another human being that just interacted with the world around them in a way that was different than I did. And I got to understand that better and it was fantastic, so thank you. And you don't have to put yourself out there like that. It's not a requirement, I think you're doing a great thing. It's fantastic that you're willing to stand up and teach people and share yourself that way with them. Preston Radtke: Well, thank you. Mark Miller: You're welcome. All right. So thank you for joining us Preston, really appreciate it. We're going to wrap things up. Thank you everyone for listening. This is Mark Miller thanking Preston, Marissa, and reminding you to keep it accessible. Speaker 1: This podcast has been brought to you by TPGi, the experts in digital accessibility. Stay tuned for more Real People, Real Stories Podcasts coming soon.