Speaker 1: Welcome to the IAP, the Interactive Accessibility podcast, bringing you the people, technology and ideas helping to make your world accessible to everyone. Mark Miller: Hey, welcome to the IAP, the Interactive Accessibility podcast brought to you by Paciello Group and its affiliate Interactive Accessibility. I'm your host, Mark Miller, thanking you for helping us keep it accessible. Do us a favor. If you're enjoying the IAP, share it. Tell someone about it. Hey, even link to it from your accessible website. Mark Miller: So, thanks everyone for joining us. I have a very interesting guest today. His name is Kevan Chandler and Kevan, I think I'm going to... Welcome to the IAP first off. It's really, really great to have you part of the show. Kevan Chandler: Thanks. Mark Miller: And what I want to do is... There's so many angles here and your life is so cool, to put it bluntly. I really want you to, if you don't mind, just starting off and telling us kind of how you fill your time. Some of these interesting things that you know I'm talking about here. Kevan Chandler: Oh, man, that's a big question. I was actually just talking to one of our board members right before this call. I feel like things move so fast and also always bringing in new people to what we're doing. And so, I'm not really sure what all I do, [crosstalk 00:01:42] but so I'll just start with kind of a broad stroke, which is I run a nonprofit called We Carry Kevin, and we are striving to redefine accessibility as more of a cooperative effort. People helping people. Kevan Chandler: We think that's where true accessibility comes from. And so, my role in that is first off, traveling to speak and write books and do interviews to kind of spread that message and then also get other people involved. And we've been having talks this week about really understanding more of what we're doing as a nonprofit. Kevan Chandler: Our marketing is we've got a backpack coming out this week for other people to use and stuff like that. So, when I'm not traveling to speak, I spend my time in a coffee shop, in downtown Fort Wayne and meet with people, both about business and just about life. And try and be as present and spend as much quality time with the people around me, as possible. Mark Miller: Beautiful. And just, I don't know if people can hear, but you're actually sitting in that very coffee shop right now. So if you're hearing background chatter and clinking and stuff like that, it's because you're in your official coffee shop office, right? Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah. I got away from the bean grinder. I figured you wouldn't appreciate that. Mark Miller: The chattering and clinking is okay, but the bean grinder might be a little much for the podcast. Kevan Chandler: Right. Right. Exactly. Mark Miller: That's super cool. And one of the things... We haven't really unveiled completely what this picture looks like, which I kind of like... But when I think about what you do and it's such a unique thing and it's for such a unique reason and it's done in such a unique way and we'll get to what all that looks like. Mark Miller: But one of the things that it makes me think about is the amazing network of friends that you must have. You really have this, in my little exploration, I imagine the people that you're surrounded by and they must be just an amazing group of people. Can you talk to me a little bit about those relationships and how you've developed it and how that's helped you push your cause forward? Kevan Chandler: Yeah. They are really amazing people and it's funny because people see the trips that we did to Europe and the one we did to China. And so they think that that group of friends is like three or four guys. But there are so many other people behind the scenes or at home, that are involved. Not just in the non-profit, but in real life, that really just makes life possible. Kevan Chandler: And it's funny because I ended up getting to speak and stuff like that, but the real heroes here are the ones who make all this stuff happen. If it weren't for them I would not be getting out of bed, literally. Kevan Chandler: So yeah, I've got two roommates that are really awesome. One of which has gone on both trips with me and he and I travel a lot together, Ben Deval. And then the other roommate is Matt [Sperken 00:05:11]. He's actually a physical therapist himself. So he's kind of involved in that world. Then we've got about 10 other guys who just come in throughout the day and night to help out on a volunteer basis, to make my life happen. Kevan Chandler: And that's only here in Fort Wayne and I've got friends elsewhere that whenever I travel they're willing to pitch in, and either come along or meet up with us where we are. And it's just so encouraging. It's humbling, but in the right way. It really shows me how much I'm loved and how much I'm valued. And so that kind of keeps me in check in a good way. So I enjoy it. Mark Miller: Well, that's evident. And I think that the other thing I would say kind of on your friend's behalf, is that you may feel all those things, but they're getting something out of it too. And it's really enriching their lives and they're enjoying it. Just looking at some of the videos and stuff that it's not... So, let's back up a little bit and talk about why you need this kind of assistance. Mark Miller: So you have muscular dystrophy. Can you talk to me about how that's affected your life and let's just disclose what it is that people are actually doing for you to get you through your day and more importantly, to get you on these awesome adventures that you and your friends take together. Kevan Chandler: Yeah. So, actually I have spinal muscular atrophy, which essentially means that the message from my brain to my spinal cord gets messed up. So I spend most of my time in a wheelchair when my friends aren't carrying me around on their backs and yeah, I'm in a wheelchair. My arms are pretty weak and my legs don't work. Kevan Chandler: And so that's why I need the help that I do, especially when I'm out of my chair. I'm pretty helpless in regard what I can do for myself. But I would also say, you kind of touched on this... Is what the guys get out of it and the joy that we experience, it all comes from the fact that it's a friendship. It's not just a service. It's not... Kevan Chandler: So, three years ago we went to Europe, and we left my wheelchair back home in the states. Just backpacked around and the guys carried me in the backpack and people were like, "Oh, it's amazing that they did this for you." And the truth is that we, as a group of friends wanted to take this trip. And this was the way that we had to do it together for me to be able to be there and be part of it. Kevan Chandler: So it really is just friends working together, both disabled, and able bodied pitching in the ways that we've been gifted, each of us. So yeah, I can look out for them and give encouragement in my own way and they can give encouragement in theirs. Mark Miller: That's amazing. And I can see where people would stumble upon that scene and have that impression like, "Oh, look what these guys are doing for you." But clearly it's something they're doing with you. To me, the cool thing in hearing you talk about it is that it's like, there's not a lot of consideration about it. It is just what needs to be done. Mark Miller: Just like they need to pack a bag and carry that with them. Just like, they need to make sure they remember their toothbrush. Just like they need to wake up their buddy when the plane lands, he knows it's landed. Just those normal things that friends would do for each other along the way, it seems to me like, this is just sort of, "Oh, another thing." Like, "Kevan needs to go on the back and we'll head out. Let's go." Kevan Chandler: Right. Mark Miller: Not really like, "Oh, we're accommodating." Or like you said, it doesn't even feel like a service. It's just this is how it works. And this is what we're doing. We all want to be together. And we all want to have this adventure. Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly. Mark Miller: Well, and I think it's a testament to a lot of things. You, as a human being and your power and ability to cultivate those kinds of relationships and where an outsider might look and say, "Geez, what does this guy really have to offer?" And what you have to offer might not be physical. It's definitely emotional and intellectual and all those kinds of things. And just the power of that contributes to a group of friends in a way that makes this something that's second nature. Mark Miller: It was amazing. Well, I gotta ask you. Let's divert a minute. Because I looked at some of your videos and stuff and you've got this kind of obvious nickname I think, of the human backpack because you fit on their back and it's really cool. You've got the backpack that you're creating or you're playing on that. So you guys obviously have a good sense of humor. But in one of these videos, one of your friends is carrying a katana. So I feel like you're in good hands. Nobody's going to get through to you. Kevan Chandler: Well, I'm glad that it suggests that he knows how to use the katana. Mark Miller: So it might actually be more dangerous than actually... Kevan Chandler: It might be. Yeah. Yeah. No, that was from a very early experience. [Ridley 00:00:11:11] decided it was actually his idea to go into the sewer system in North Carolina. I was like, "Sure, why not? Let's do it." And something he had always wanted to explore and wanted me to go with him. So, that's where the backpack came from originally. And so we had the katana because we grew up on Ninja Turtles, so it just kind of made sense. It's like, "Well, let's go into the sewers and take a samurai sword with us. Mark Miller: Why not? That's perfect. Which Ninja turtle do you most identify with? Kevan Chandler: It's changed over the years as I've gotten older. So now, oh man. Mark Miller: It's an important question. Kevan Chandler: It is. It's a very important question. One that I haven't really thought through lately. Can I get back to you on that? Mark Miller: You can come back to it. Kevan Chandler: But don't don't let me forget. Mark Miller: I won't let you forget. We're huge Ninja turtle fans over here. I live in New Hampshire, right? In a small town called Exeter and about 20 minutes northwest of us is the city of Dover, New Hampshire, which is in fact where the Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles were first created. Kevan Chandler: Oh, nice. Mark Miller: Yeah. So anybody paying attention to that, Dover is just north of the University of New Hampshire. Kevan Chandler: You just keep pulling out all the trivia about New Hampshire. Mark Miller: Because I live here. Kevan Chandler: Right. Right. Mark Miller: Start me talking on Fort Wayne, it'll be over pretty quick. Kevan Chandler: Right. Right. Mark Miller: I know a guy named Kevan that does really cool stuff, that lives in Fort Wayne and that's about the end of it. Kevan Chandler: Yeah. And we have coffee. Mark Miller: And you have coffee.You guys don't have office space. You all work at a coffee shop. Kevan Chandler: Right. Exactly. Yeah. That's the whole thing. Mark Miller: So, you guys are doing more than just hanging out with your friends. And I got to say, "I'm jealous." It looks like you guys have sort of created this perpetual college feel. And again, it looks like you guys are goofing around and having fun and having adventures. Mark Miller: And a lot of people are probably listening to this going."I wish that's how my every day went." But kudos to you guys. I think that's really cool. And you're not just goofing around. This is really for a cause. And you're actually writing some books, as well, in a couple of different genres it sounds like, but can you talk to me about how these particular experiences are starting to inspire that writing for you? Kevan Chandler: Yeah. So when we got back from our original trip, I decided to write a memoir about that experience. And I always loved writing, but I had never wanted to write anything about myself. But this just seemed like something that should be written. So I kind of pursued that. Kevan Chandler: And through that process, I don't know what happened, but at some point in there it kind of clicked where I could write about my experience. But I could also write fiction and nonfiction about like concepts of accessibility and everything. And I could still tie my own experience into it still in a creative writing way. And I also realized too, that some of my favorite writers, as I've learned more about their lives, I realized that you write what you know. And so it comes through and it affects everything that you write. Kevan Chandler: So my favorite writer, James Barrie, who is famous for writing Peter Pan, he also wrote a ton of novels about a fictional village in Scotland. A fictional town that turned out to actually be based on the town that he grew up in. Gwen O'Leary has done the same. Frederick Beecher and a ton of other guys. Tolkien did a lot of that too. Kind of basing things off a childhood memories [inaudible 00:00:15:34]. Just kind of embracing that and realizing that I love writing about adventure, but I also can see the adventure in everyday life. Kevan Chandler: And also the crazy adventures that we've had and kind of tying all of that in and being able to allow it to continue to make stories [inaudible 00:15:59] and it's been really liberating. Mark Miller: Yeah. That's brilliant. Stephen King lives up in Maine, a little bit away from us, and he has family in this area. And in his book on writing, he really... You hit on one of the major points of that book and that is that you write what you know. If you don't know it, you're not going to write it well. It doesn't matter who you are. So, even if it's [inaudible 00:16:25] he does, it's inspired from things that you're familiar with, just like you were talking about. Mark Miller: So a lot of his talents and stuff are exactly like that. So let me ask you this, in that vein, when you first started writing, was your first sort of like, "Hey, I think I'm going to take a stab at this writing thing." Was that in response to that trip or had you been writing before that? Kevan Chandler: I remember writing short stories and really bad comics, when I was like eight years old. It's always been a part of me. But after college, a friend of mine introduced me to an author named Walter Moores and he's a German older folk cartoonist who also writes these super weird novels. And so they were like, "Hey, I think you would like this." So, I read it. And then I remember about halfway through the first book, I felt like he was jumping onto the page and saying, "Don't be afraid to tell your stories, whatever's in your head." Kevan Chandler: And so I started doing that, just coming up with... I had always been developing stories in my head and so I just started putting them down on paper and writing about what I enjoyed writing about. Writing about what I wanted to read, basically. And so at the time it was a lot of like detective stuff and zombie stuff. And I was in that zone, but I self published a lot of stuff back then and did a Bible study kind of thing that was more narrative. Yeah. Did a lot of stuff like that. Kevan Chandler: But it was always self published. And when we were going on this trip, I really got the sense from some that some other writers and publishers and editors who said, "If you write this as a book, we think it will actually go somewhere." Mark Miller: Highly publishable. Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah. So that's when I really pursued that. Mark Miller: So is that experience and writing about it, is that starting to inform some of your future fiction? Kevan Chandler: You know, it actually is. And I didn't even realize it was, until I guess maybe recently. There's actually characters that I have been toying with for a few years now, that I realized, "Oh, wait, this kind of ties in with my own experience." And so, I've noticed that in every thing I write, there's always some sort of physical limitation or disability that sometimes it's addressed, but a lot of times it's just part of the character. Like a guy has a fake leg or a guy's in a wheelchair, whatever the case may be. And so I kind of like that it's just a part of the world. Mark Miller: Handled in a matter of fact way. Kevan Chandler: Yeah. And then you see how that interacts with the people around him or her. So we'll see. I don't know how it will manifest itself ultimately, but I'm excited. Mark Miller: Do you ever think about being just more direct and actually writing a story with a character that's pretty much in your exact situation? Kevan Chandler: Yeah. I actually have a story that I've been tinkering with for several years and just kind of waiting for it to fully develop itself, as I write down pieces of it. But the two main characters are essentially a guy that's disabled and his best friend. And he gets carried around, kind of dragged around wherever they go and stuff. And they go on adventures around the countryside. So we'll see. I don't know. Or I may decide that's a little too close to what I've already written and scrap it. Mark Miller: From an outside audience perspective, I can tell you that what would interest me about that story is I would imagine the relationship development between those two people, the difficulties and the things that they overcome together and goods and the bads and all that kind of stuff. It would be an opportunity to explore that relationship in that way. And you probably uniquely have insight for that, because I would imagine that there is something very different about your relationship with somebody who's literally carrying you on their back. Mark Miller: And in essence, always sort of in like supreme control of what happens. If you want to go left, and they don't, if the relationship is good, maybe they consider that, but if they want to go right, and you don't want them to, that's what's going to happen. Mark Miller: So there's a real trust. There's a lot of amplifications of sort of normal qualities in a relationship and just shifts in the way that two people would relate to each other that I think would be amazing to explore and probably help illuminate some things for people who aren't in that circumstance, that would help them understand themselves better too. So, [inaudible 00:22:17] personally. Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Well, because on that note, I think for the disabled or able-bodied in any relationship that they have, I think it is applicable because what you end up seeing happen from my experience, is when you're physically attached, like when you're on someone's back being carried around, you end up sharing experience together. Kevan Chandler: And there have been times when I have gotten to see the world through the perspective of whoever was carrying me. While we were in England, we went to the British museum, which I mean, in general I can say is really cool, but we had a guy on our trip who is a history teacher at a high school or middle school. And so I actually was on his back for that part of the day. Kevan Chandler: And so going through the exhibits with this guy who has studied these things in a textbook for so long and getting to experience his excitement, he was just enthralled. And so by proxy, I became enthralled with it, as well. It was such a rich experience that I would have never had on my own. So I think that's something that people can glean from, just as a community and growing together as people. Mark Miller: That's a very interesting point. And I think that in this world of distractions, cell phones and there's always something better around every other corner. And it's very different than the world was 50, a 100 years ago. And I can see myself maybe hanging out with this same guy and being pretty interested in, but I have this unique option to walk away and come back and experience things independently. And then back with that individual. And I probably would do those things. Mark Miller: Whereas with you, you're in this situation where you have no choice, but to ride that out all the way through with that individual. And because you can't succumb to those other distractions, it ultimately enhances your experience. Is what I'm hearing from you. Mark Miller: And I think that that's a really interesting perspective. And again, it might cause audiences to be introspective. It certainly causes me to be introspective. What if I couldn't walk away from this person's side and I had to go through this with them? Where would I ultimately end up versus when I kind of get bored and shuffle off and look at something else or whatever it is? Kevan Chandler: Yeah. It's kind of a new or a different level of selflessness. Like, "Oh, I really have to be here. I have to be present." And so that can't be anything but a growing experience. And even if you head off in another direction, that guy's with you. You might pick the direction. You could wander off, but he's going to wander off with you. Mark Miller: Yeah. Yeah. Kevan Chandler: That's really cool. So, I think that I'm definitely going to pour through some of these writings because I think that your perspective is just an amazing one and probably one that can really inform a better way for other people to go through their lives. Kevan Chandler: And certainly just a unique and worthwhile perspective to share with the world. So, thanks for doing that. You could just have all these cool experiences and do what you do and not put it down on paper for the rest of us. That's really cool, you're motivated to do that. Kevan Chandler: Tell me... We got to wrap up here pretty soon. So tell me what are your hopes for the future? How are you going to move? Are you thinking about expanding the nonprofit? Are you thinking about more adventures, more books? What do you really see right now for you, in five years or so? Kevan Chandler: Well, I don't know about that. Who knows what will happen in five years. Mark Miller: Tomorrow, then. Kevan Chandler: Well, tomorrow I get on a plane and fly off... [inaudible 00:26:57] So, right now we, as a nonprofit, are really figuring out the next stage of who we are. This week we were finally able to release or put on sale, the backpack that we designed for our travels. We were able to mass produce it. And so now it's available on the website. Kevan Chandler: And so we're kind of going from being simply a nonprofit, that's all about inspiration, to being a nonprofit that provides, I guess, the practical steps to apply that inspiration and move forward in your own experience, and being able to equip people to have that experience as well. Kevan Chandler: So, yeah, I mean, right now we're really focused on the backpack and giving those to the people they can best benefit. People that would love to have adventures of their own. And then as we see how that goes, we'll hopefully be able to provide other similar equipment or services. Kevan Chandler: We'd love to come alongside families and work through what accessibility looks like for them specifically, which we've been able to do over the past, I would say three and half, four years, as people have just approached us. And we had conversations either over email or Facebook or in person at conferences or churches or schools. It's been so cool to talk through things with families and be an encourager and be able to help them figure out what their lives look like. Kevan Chandler: Mine works one way and other people's may work another way, but I think if we get creative and we're willing to work together [inaudible 00:29:08] for there. And so being able to walk along side people to do that has been a big part of what we do. But as we move forward, I would like to be able to do that in a more professional capacity when you're providing that as a service in a more full time way. Kevan Chandler: So we'll see what that looks like. And then of course we want to continue to not just tell the story of what we've done, but we want to continue to have adventures, continue to travel. So that the story is a Hong Kong going thing that people work on and don't say, "Oh, well, he had this one-time bucket list experience. And then everybody went away." Kevan Chandler: It's like, "No, this is a life that we live." So back in September, we went to China and we got to spend time with some care centers that are designed for orphans with disabilities. And so we got to play with the kids and the staff, as well as hike the great wall and stuff like that. Kevan Chandler: And so being able to, as we move forward, doing more trips, but with that kind of purpose of connecting with the disabled community of wherever we are, and hopefully being an encouragement to them in person. So yeah, it's a lot of cool stuff going on and we'll see what happens. Mark Miller: Yeah. It really is. And just hearing you talk about it, I see this sort of metaphorical role reversal where you're taking all these adventures. You're literally being carried on somebody else's back to facilitate these adventures. But when you get there and when you sit down with families and other people with disabilities and you inspire them to accommodate the way they need to, in order to have as rich of a life, you're in essence, temporarily kind of carrying them on your back. Kevan Chandler: Sure. Mark Miller: And allowing them through your experiences, to kind of ride along, long enough to realize that they can do that. And with your backpack. And I'm assuming the backpack is a regular backpack, where you could put your stuff in, and it has accommodations to where you could put somebody like yourself on the back as well. Is that fair to say? Kevan Chandler: It's primarily the latter. And then secondarily, the former. So we started with a toddler carrier from a company called Deuter D-E-U-T-E-R. They're a German backpack company. And it was designed for a 40 pound toddler to be able to be carried. And we redid the whole thing and retrofitted it to be for a 165 pound grown man. Kevan Chandler: And so we've been able to work with them for the past couple of years to take what we did and do not just a professional version of that, but also continue to make modifications and tweak it to be more adjustable for more needs of the disabled community. Mark Miller: So I think that that's a real... Like it's one thing to tell your story and to talk to people and to have this kind of conceptual idea of being able to accommodate and do things. But I think having this backpack for you is going to bring that to another level, because I think it's going to be something very tangible to people, where they, "Wait a minute. I can order this thing and get going." Or if it's not that, "I can order something and get going. This is not just an idea that I have to figure out, but it's something that is just doable." Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Yeah. It's no longer just an inspirational story from a distance, but it's something that you can have for yourself. Yeah. Yeah, and I think even just the idea of people helping people, it's manifested so clearly in the use of the backpack. And so, hopefully as I said before, hopefully we can provide other options down the road, but this is what we're focused on right now. And, so, yeah, I think it does provide a tangible, applicable way for people to act on that concept. Mark Miller: Well, here's my request and my wish. I think that you should also design a backpack that's not necessarily for carrying somebody around, but inspired by you that you could sell to the masses and make money. Because I know I would buy one of those. So think about that and send me an email when you have it. Kevan Chandler: Sure, sure. Yeah. Mark Miller: What an amazing story. I mean, it's inspiring. It's inspiring to me and it's got to be inspiring to a lot of other people. And, like I said, what a great way to spend your life, spend your day and really get involved with something that just matters to you. One last really, really, really important thing. This is going to be the most important thing of the podcast and you know it's coming because you told me not to let you off the hook. Which Ninja turtle? Kevan Chandler: Oh man. Okay. Mark Miller: Michael Angelo, Leonardo, Raphael, Donatello. Kevan Chandler: I'm going to say Michael Angelo. And I say that because I'm going to be that generational guy and ask, "Are you familiar with the Enneagram? Mark Miller: Say that again. With the... Kevan Chandler: The Enneagram personality stuff. Mark Miller: A little bit. Yeah. Kevan Chandler: Okay. Yeah. Well then I'll skip it. I won't use that as an example, but I... Maybe instead of an Enneagram or a Myers Briggs, everyone should just be [crosstalk 00:35:38] classified by ninja turtles. That'd be great. I think right now, my favorite and the one that I identify most with is Michael Angelo because I'm so much like, I want to do stuff, I want to have fun and be out there and just be with my friends, kind of goofing off and bringing more and more people into that, hence the conversations and stuff that we're doing. But just that kind of light hearted kind of thing. I get that. Yeah. Yeah. Mark Miller: And your friend is clearly Leonardo, with his katana. Kevan Chandler: Sure, and then my roommate Ben is Donatello because he is the one that actually thinks through everything. Mark Miller: Oh, gotcha. Kevan Chandler: Yeah. Mark Miller: I guess that leaves me. I'll jump in as Raphael, if you don't have anybody else. Kevan Chandler: Yeah, yeah. I was going to ask who you would be. Mark Miller: It's funny, I identify myself probably as a bit of a Michael Angelo, but that's probably more of like I think you live Michael Angelo a little bit more than that. I might a little bit too, but [inaudible 00:36:48] Kevan Chandler: You're the Michael Angelo of New Hampshire. Mark Miller: There you go. Well, listen, Hey I would be a Ninja turtle with you any day. I really, really appreciate you coming on and talking to us and what an inspiring story. I feel like we could do it over and over again and forever. I'm sure you've got more and more stories. And maybe on that note, we'll have you back again, but don't be a stranger to us. Please keep in touch and let us know what you have going on. Mark Miller: Marissa, who's our producer is going to make sure that we have all sorts of links to all the different things that you're doing. So if you've been listening to this and you want to read more on the web, find books and stuff like that, we'll make sure that all that stuff is available. And really cool, man. Thanks. Thanks so much for joining us. Kevan Chandler: Awesome. Thanks, Mark. Mark Miller: Yeah. You're welcome. This is Mark Miller thanking Kevan Chandler and reminding you to keep it accessible. Speaker 1: The IAP Interactive Accessibility podcast is brought to you by Interactive Accessibility, the accessibility experts. You can find their access matters blog at interactiveaccessibility.com slash blog.