Speaker 1: Welcome to the IAP. The Interactive Accessibility Podcast bringing you the people, technology, and ideas, helping to make your world accessible to everyone. Mark Miller: Hey. Welcome to the IAP. The Interactive Accessibility Podcast brought to you by The Paciello Group, and its affiliated interactive accessibility. I'm your host, Mark Miller, thanking you for helping us keep it accessible. Do us a favor. If you enjoy the IAP, share it. Listen to it, even share it on your accessible podcasts. And hey, I've got a great guest for you guys today. I know everybody is stuck inside, your hopefully at home safe with your families. If you're listening to this, you might be working from home. So first and foremost before we get started, I want everybody to be safe and hope everybody is safe, and that together we're going to get through this. Having said all that, our topic today really is about having a shelter and place, having to deal with a different sort of a new normal, a new way of operating and how that affects people with disabilities. We have a wonderful guest today, Tony DePalma. He is the director of public policy for Disability Rights Florida. He directs the policy initiatives across all nine Disability Rights Florida federal government programs. And he is primarily involved in coordinating all aspects of legislative affairs and related operations. So it makes him uniquely qualified to really talk with us and help understand how people with disabilities might be having extra challenges or different challenges than they typically would on any other day or any normal environment. With that, it's my pleasure to welcome to the show, Tony. Tony, how you doing? Tony DePalma: Good. Thanks, Mark. Thanks for having me. Mark Miller: Yeah, you bet. I have to tell everybody, right before the show, you said, "Hey. Is this recorded? Is it okay that I'm dressed casual and sitting on my back porch and everything?" So my reaction was, "Of course," because this is our new normal. We're working from home, things are more casual. I think you probably should feel lucky you don't have kids screaming in the background while you're trying to work, right? Tony DePalma: Right. Mark Miller: Because that's conference calls for me. That's what's going on and people just accept that now. The dogs barking, the kids are screaming. Screaming might be a little harsh, right? Making noise, needing their mom, especially those younger kids. We're really in this time, it's just very different for everyone. We're all adjusting. We all have to deal with fears, with anxieties, with a new way of operating. And I think for the most part, the world seems to be coming together and doing this pretty well and in pretty good spirits. But when I think about my friends that have disabilities, we deal with a lot of people with different disabilities. Particularly, we have a lot of friends that we work with that are blind and I think about how much more tactile those people are. If you're blind, you're feeling braille right outside the bathroom door. You might have to be touching your environment a lot more to understand what's around you. And that was probably the immediate thing, just thinking about viruses that came to mind. But I'm probably just scratching the surface in what I can imagine, people with various type of disabilities have to be having all sorts of challenges. So tell us a little bit about, who you are first of all, if you want to add to anything I've said, and then I'd love to get into it with you and what are these changes that you're seeing the department of Disability Rights Florida really experiencing and hearing about now? Tony DePalma: Sure. First off, Mark, I should probably confess. Part of my discussion before we got on together about the video, had to do with the baseball cap and being outside, also had to do with this, for folks who can see it on the podcast, my ridiculous mustache, which I started growing three weeks ago when we started transitioning to work from home. I wanted to use it as a reinforcer for social distancing, which is to say, I don't want folks to see this mustache at all so it helps me stay away from people. Besides the mustache, this is just an immense period of transition for everyone. Like you said, I work with Disability Rights Florida, out of Tallahassee, Florida. We are the state's protection and advocacy organization. Each state and seven territories have a P&A, a protection and advocacy system, so we're Florida's. The range of work that we do. We do our best to ensure rights protection across voting systems, ensuring voting access, education, incarcerated populations, community issues, transitioning to the community and sharing community integration. I guess I mentioned that first because our P&A network is really robust, really vibrant. And when we all had to go underground or behind closed doors to start, that was one of the biggest benefits for how I do my job and how I try to keep track of these issues on a policy level. We have good discussion across all of our P&As. We have virtual discussion forums and Listservs, where we're able to learn what else is happening in the country, how people are approaching some of these dilemmas. What's working, what isn't working, sharing best practices. As isolating as it immediately felt to say goodbye to my desk chair on March 13th when we all left, I immediately felt plugged in on a different non-physical level. Which, from my perspective, raises a good point and something I keep coming back to. People with disabilities have been such literal trailblazers in how communication modalities, how technology can benefit integration and communication. The rest of the world is like the new jacks to all this. The folks who are just like, "What do I do? How on earth can I stay on track with my cousin, or my boss, or my direct reports?" So my brain just keeps coming back to that notion. The notion that, folks with disabilities, by and large, have helped trailblaze all of these different types of communication that now the whole world's being thrust into. But to your question more directly, what are the issues we're seeing? The first issue I think we noticed on a real alarming level were education issues. Which by my count sort of traces to the fact that, the moment schools closed around the country in different capacities, that sort of, beyond the immediate, "Oh, goodness. I have to stay home with my children or how does this work?" Disability advocates, their first thought immediately was how do educational protections and civil rights protections work during this time? Some of the early instruction we saw from the feds was indicating that maybe the federal IDEA, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, wouldn't be able to be adhered to if schools were closed, which is to say some students with disabilities, the early thought was, "Do they just sit home? Are they not educated for the period?" Mark Miller: That's insane. It's interesting that you say that because, one of the things that we really, I think, started to realize early on in our industry, which is our industry is really to help people make their websites accessible to people with disabilities is that, driving all these people home for education, and all sorts of other things by the way not just education, it became much more important for accessibility on the web. People who were reliant on their screen readers or other means of access to be able to really to go in there and do what they needed to do and that it's immediate. One of the things that is interesting is I heard a quote, I can't remember if it's Fauci or somebody else said something to the effect of, once a pandemic starts it's too late to prepare it. I kind of felt that way. Once this starts and kids are driven home and they need access for education, it's too late to figure it out. It already should be in place like those portals, those learning management systems. All of those things should already be accessible for these kids. And some of them are but some of them aren't. Tony DePalma: Right. I would say, as these types of considerations spring forward, I think there's this immediate notion, at least for me there was that, all right, we're all in this together. Nothing's perfect immediately. This is sort of a patchwork solution, we're just trying to get through to next week or next month. And in the educational context, I guess that means one thing, like trying to understand how distance learning, remote learning, or different web accessibility can benefit or help resolve this on a patchwork level. But the longer this becomes a perpetual sort of dilemma into the next school year or different parts of the next school year, these types of concerns are just magnified and amplified. And that's why, like you're saying, maybe this is a good instance of a pandemic planning or public emergency planning that wasn't all the way thought through. The good news is though that, as much as that early sort of question mark about how do educational entitlements and disability rights apply in the educational context right out of the gate, the US department of education has issued instruction specifically saying that IDEA still is in effect, and then piggybacking that with their interpretation that, remote learning and distance learning can fulfill these requirements which... That's the stretch for a lot of folks watching this is, can they actually be fulfilled? If students have classroom accommodations, or testing accommodations, or just learning accommodations, digital hearing accommodations written into their IEPs, how can we ensure that they're all being satisfied with fidelity throughout this? A lot of students have one-on-one aides. That's a very difficult sort of prospect at this moment and so all of a sudden parents and natural supports are becoming those aides. Again, on a short-term basis, I think we all still have that goodwill inside of us that's like, we're trying to make this work, we're trying to figure out how this works, but the longer this continues, the more those types of discussions and thoughts become more severe for sure. Mark Miller: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:11:43]- Marissa: Hey, Tony. I have... Sorry. Mark Miller: Go ahead, Marissa. Marissa: I have a question. Have you seen or heard of any anecdotal evidence of how teachers or aides have been able to overcome some of these challenges with an innovative idea? Tony DePalma: Yeah. Anecdotally, yes. It seems as though... Unlike a personal and a professional level, I'm hearing from friends or colleagues of mine regarding what's working or what's working for their kids. And again, I think that's something that needs to be patterned and replicated. What's working needs to be what's sort of carrying the day and other jurisdictions are looking to consider as well. So we are getting intakes about just the concerns at the outset, like how can this work, or will this work? But we're also hearing some, and like you're saying anecdotal evidence, that, yeah, this is working. [inaudible 00:12:41]. Go ahead, Mark. Mark Miller: The group that you're talking about too, like you made a really good point and that's that, a lot of people with disabilities, it isn't new to them. The question that you asked, in terms of, is this something that we can do in this way? I think that that question's always asked. As soon as you talk about accommodating, you're talking about innovating, and that question is asked and it's always overcome. So I feel like this is a strong, persevering, innovative group of people as it is, that have had to figure out their own way of accommodating and operating in a way that's different than maybe what is being handed to them. And it strikes me that, you're saying all these people are talking and trying to figure it out. And you talked about your network in the beginning. We talked about how much we come together as a world community right now in something like this. It's got to be incredibly helpful to be able to share the ideas and the innovations that are occurring right now, amongst, I'm thinking specifically of these students who are having to figure out how to operate at home and their support mechanism. Like you said that natural support mechanism that they're relying on now because other support mechanisms might not make sense right now for them because- Marissa: Spit it out, Mark. Mark Miller: What's that, Marissa? Marissa: Spit it out. Mark Miller: Yeah. I tried. Sorry. I [inaudible 00:14:11] so many words and then they get all cluttered up. You talked about your network, have you found that there's a big network of the community of people with disabilities that's really working together to help share innovations and everything? And if so, is that formalized? Where would one go to look if they haven't found this yet? Tony DePalma: Right. That is something that I'm seeing and it's not just relegated to the educational context. I think, as much so as broadly across all pockets of society, people are sort of having to consider what connectedness means, what remaining plugged in means, whether that's a relational consideration between friends, between family members, whether that's a work context, my direct reports or people I have to report to, how this all works. In terms of where folks might want to go to look at some of these issues on a disability rights level or to make sure that different questions about accessibility and inclusion are addressed and resources are provided to help people, I would say that, again, the disability rights movement was built by the Independent Living Network. So all over the country, there are centers for independent living. And on the national level they're coordinated by NCIL, N-C-I-L, the National Centers for Independent Living. I might be screwing up the acronym. But, much like the P&A system which again is more of a legal and rights rooted sort of operation, the independent living network exists 100% to help people in these moments, to help ensure integration, to help ensure independence, and to make sure that folks aren't becoming isolated or necessarily feeling isolated. I always look to NICL for instruction in these moments and I know that they're putting out messaging the same way that the P&A network is, both across a range of important issues that we can begin talking about or just practical type advice in terms of, how these new realities sort of break out, how people stay safe, how people stay together. So I always look to NICL for that type of information. Another national group that is sort of grassroots and people-oriented is ADAPT chapters. All over the nation, ADAPT folks are the frontline warriors who, when Medicaid is under attack, get arrested in Congress. So I know there's a lot of ADAPT chapters around the state and at a national level that are also helping people figure out these new realities and how to navigate them and how to... Again, I think there's always strength in numbers. There's always a resolve in sharing information and I think this is a particular moment where the disability communities around the country are sort of doubling down on that consideration. Mark Miller: Like we said before, this group of people is just no stranger to standing up and dealing with something difficult, so hopefully it makes them sort of uniquely qualified and skilled to work in this situation as well. The other thing, when I imagine what people with disabilities, the challenge they might be having, and their vast, don't think anybody could sit there and come up with all the things that each individual might need in their particular circumstance. But I know that a lot of people with disabilities live alone, and a lot of people with disabilities, especially if they live alone, rely on services to come to their house or to take them out of the house or whatever. Any sort of thing where that human contact is important, where getting out in the public is important, all those kinds of things. Have you guys heard anything or is there anything in particular being done to really help? The reason why I ask this is because I know in the state of New Hampshire where I am, they are calling for Meals on Wheels volunteers. And one of our employees, a guy that does almost the same job as I do, Brian, Brian, shout out if you're out there, he volunteers every Friday, and has for years, to bring meals to Meals on Wheels. And it's something that he's continuing to do but now this organization is begging for people to help out because these people that are reliant on that service just can't get it anymore. And it's not like they're going to be like, "Okay. Well, I'll go make my own meal." That's what rely on. Have you seen that kind of circumstance with people with disabilities? What do you see for challenges if you do and what are people doing about it? Tony DePalma: Great. To a point you were just making, I think, it's sort of ironic, the notion that, away from institutional care, away from institutional settings, the goal line, away from congregate settings, is independent living. Living on your own. But I think sort of, without intention, you're right, become a potentially isolating type of dynamic where people who... when there aren't global pandemics outside of their doors and gates are able to integrate into their communities and live alone but when those doors shut and those gates shut, are we sure that all of these individuals know where to access resources, know where to look for help, know where their meals are coming from, or if they're able, how to help other people figure these things out. Again, by my count is, the beginning of week four of my own sort of isolation from work and stuff, I suspect these are the same types of considerations and conversations that are happening simultaneous, across our networks, across our country. Again, I've heard anecdotal information. Disability Rights Florida, our intake line, we staff about 7,000 or 8,000 client intakes or caller intakes each year. That's normally a real vital source of information for folks like me to understand how big of an issue is a particular issue in the state or what is the sort of nuanced part of the issue that people are calling about and asking for help about. So when I was pulled away from my physical office, those are tougher things to keep track of. We're having to stay in touch through email, those types of communication statuses. But I think that before these problems are addressed on like a federal, regulatory level, or litigated at some point, some of these issues are going to create litigation. The first consideration is like, how are we helping each other? What are we doing to make sure everyone is eating? What are we doing to make sure that people who need medicine are getting it? What are we doing to make sure that people who benefit from home health aides and personal care services, solutions are being proposed for them or they're making it through? And so those are the things that our intake lines are trying our best to understand at the front end, so that we can help plug people into resources and information as best as we're able. Mark Miller: What I hope too is that the community really steps up and organically solves a lot of this. I know that when we were first starting to talk about shelter and place and my wife and I were going out for a walk with a dog because it's like the only thing you can do right now for exercise. She turned to me and she said, "Hey. We should check on the Scotts." The Scotts are a real elderly wonderful couple that live a few doors down. I went over and I knocked on his door and I stepped back away from the door, took him a while to get to the door, and I just said, "Hey. We just want to make sure you're doing all right. Do you have a way to get groceries?" That kind of thing. And I think that... That's what I would hope. I guess if you're listening to the podcast and it's not something you had thought about, if you know that there's somebody with a disability or a challenge down the street from you, go knock on their door. Don't wait for the type of help that you're talking about necessarily, that might take some time but these people might need a little bit of help right now. So community. I think community is just like, that's the silver lining in a situation like this. It's just seeing how community comes together and how a lot of those barriers fall. Maybe you're nervous to go talk to that guy that you have seen going down the street with a cane and you're like, "Oh. It's a blind guy. I don't know what to do. I'm not comfortable with that so I've never introduced myself to my blind neighbor," and maybe you have. But now's the time to let that go and to go talk to those people. Tony, the other thought that I really had is, I can't tell you how many times I say, how are you doing to somebody and they come back to me and they say, "We're doing all right. The family is safe and healthy. We're going a little bit stir crazy." And for us, for people without disabilities, that means that they're getting a little uncomfortable, and that they've got something to deal with. And it's not necessarily not a serious thing because it could become serious. Like you do need to watch out for your mental health no matter who you are but people who are already facing cognitive disabilities especially ones that are triggered or related to anxiety, there must be a whole lot going on there. Have you heard anything in that realm and have you heard if there's any sort of help or services or advice or anything for people who might be particularly stressed in a situation like this? Tony DePalma: I'm certainly a big believer in self-care, on a disability or a non-disability level. I think these are the things we have to do to make sure that we're able to do our best to help fulfill roles for other people that are counting on us, whether that's work, or family, or like you're saying, reaching out to people in the community. And in order to be able to do that we have to be honest about how we're feeling. How this natural anxiety is washing over us and how it's changing our thoughts, and feelings. Whether that's wondering about next week, because your particular circumstances are requiring you to worry about what next week looks like, or whether that's worrying about next school year, or the next spring break, whatever it is. I feel like for sure, we have to be honest about these systems and our ability to access them and knowing when the right time to ask for them, to access them and ask for help is. Again, through my organization, I've seen resources come through over email. I know not everyone's able to be plugged in like that at the moment, so I think that's a moment that it's incumbent on local government, state governments, the federal government, to sort of let people know how these resources work, how you can rely on them, how they can help, how you can still do therapy in counseling sessions telephonically or remotely through video chat, and not feeling that that's like a sign of weakness. Not self-stigmatizing what your needs are. This is certainly a moment where that type of resource delivery and public awareness has to step in doubly so, to make sure folks are making it through. It's interesting I came on this call with you all. I sort of went through a bunch of issues in my mind that I thought we were going to talk about, we still might have a chance to, but the first 20 or so minutes of the conversation are really the most important types of things we can talk about, like how we're doing, how we stay together. Some of these considerations that break down disability conversations entirely or that precisely and specifically impact populations of people with disabilities. At the same time we're trying to make sure people are doing well and knowing that they're together and they're not alone. Other issues that Disability Rights Florida is trying to keep its focus on include voting issues, which in Florida are presidential primary and I know New Hampshire presidential preference primary is already behind us. So we've been afforded the opportunity to not have to think immediately like some states whose presidential preference primary is tomorrow about how this works. Florida, we had some poll workers contract the virus or later test positive for the virus. So all of these different things are sort of creating a lot of uncertainties in voting world. It seems if you're reading tea leaves, the way forward is vote by mail ballot. Luckily in Florida we have no excuse, vote by mail balloting already. Some states you have to have an excuse to be able to vote by mail and those states will have to figure out like, well, is a global pandemic a sufficient excuse? But when the conversation- Mark Miller: I would think so. Tony DePalma: Go ahead, Mark. Go ahead. Mark Miller: I would think so. Tony DePalma: When the conversation turns to vote by mail balloting, A, in a non-disability context that affects some of the national discourse, that's not always what people in power want to see happen. On a disability level, how are the states and how is the whole apparatus going to ensure that vote by mail balloting is fully accessible? Some jurisdictions have moved to braille balloting, Florida hasn't. Some jurisdictions allow for similar mechanisms to how Florida ballots its military and overseas voting populations, which is essentially sending a link, someone votes on the link with their own accessibility and IT equipment or AT equipment, and then prints the ballot and mails it in from there. These aren't simple questions and they don't necessarily bring forward simple solutions, but voting is going to have to be something that sets the stage for how society gets out of this. Who leads us out of this dilemma, who ensures that we're better prepared in the future to deal with these things. Our voting rights work is always central to our operations and something we really focus on but now it's doubly or triply so. An issue that I've been working with a lot this past week is medical rationing. The notion that there aren't enough ventilators in every state to keep people alive through bouts of exposure and treatment. So what types of ethical and legal considerations are evoked by that grim sort of conversation? And at the same time, we're talking about life or death for people who might have their care rationed or resource allocation diverted away from them for one reason or another, and we're trying to make sure that's not discriminatorily done and that the ADA and the Rehab Act adhere too. But at the same time there's these life and death consideration. There is also a need for hospitals and healthcare providers to understand what accessibility means and communication. And in having batteries for hearing aids available, and having correct mobility devices, and other auxiliary aids that people with disabilities will need in these intensive care units. It's almost like any problem, any type of issue you can imagine and wonder how it's sort of breaking out at the moment. If you have the privilege, like I do, to sort of close your eyes and think how that's impacting people with disabilities, there's no shortage of urgent thoughts that spring to mind. This is a real galvanizing moment for all of our communities and for society in general to really double down on what inclusion means and representation means. Things that we talk about a lot. 1990 felt good, the ADA was passed, but do the civil rights of people with disabilities mean the same thing that other civil rights do at this moment? Are we going to be taking ventilators away from people just because they have underlying Alzheimer's condition or might be someone with HIV or AIDS? Some states have just put out, just transparently noxious planning for this. If there's an underlying intellectual disability or cognitive disability, those folks are potentially, until the feds or the courts weigh in, going to receive care second or not at all. I hope that our federal civil rights laws are the sort that weren't illusory and that are firmly entrenched in that, these are the types of things that when it's all over and all done with, we don't have to have those sort of enforcement conversations or litigation periods where we're after the fact trying to figure out what we did wrong. I think these types of protections need to be in place, they need to be unabrogated, they need to be unmovable, in the educational context, in the voting context, in the healthcare context. Mark Miller: Tony, you're clearly passionate about it and it shows how you think about this particular situation that we're in. One of the things I guess I never stopped to think about that you're really underscoring here is that, there's two things that really are going on or that need to be thought about and considered and one is, what happens right now? And that's everything that you were just talking about. Are we going to make decisions when it comes to somebody's care where people with disabilities are second? Are people with disabilities not going to get resources? And that's right now. That's this pandemic, that's the situation. That's right now. But then when you're talking about the voting, people with disabilities in some instances may have a much harder time getting to the voting room than somebody without a disability to begin with, and now it's more challenging for everyone. So does that mean that those considerations actually end up being represented less for groups that are trying to vote right now? So the long-term impact as well as the immediate impact is something to think about. You made a good point. One of the things I think we all have to realize and it's our part of being a member of society is that we just have to do with less. I don't think anybody here is saying like, people with disabilities or anybody else, your life shouldn't change. That's wrong. All of our lives are changing. We have to make... We can't go outside. We can't do the things that we used to do but within that, are the things that are changing, are they still equivalent? Are people with disabilities still having an equivalent and appropriate change that reflects what the rest of the population might be having or is their change even more difficult? And I think that's what is interesting to me is to see how we manage. And I agree with you. I've heard people say this about this pandemic in general that, it may have lasting effects and changes in the way society operates. There's all sorts of stuff going on. We're more reliant on going online. Our rivers and our skies are becoming cleaner because pollution has reduced. There's a lot of things that could happen. And through the struggles of people with disabilities, do we also forge changes and are those positives? That's what I'm hearing from you and that's what's exciting. I hear the passion in your voice when it comes to that as well. That's really illuminating I think. Tony DePalma: To your point, Mark, one of the guideposts in our voting access work is that notion of non-partisanship that we're trying to create voting access to just increase the number of folks voting their choices. I certainly don't want to be misinterpreted to suggest that like, hey, if one party takes over or a new party takes over or this party comes to its senses everything gets better. Like you, I'm sort of an optimist deep down and it doesn't always come through with me, but I do hope that... Like you were saying about the skies and the water. That's just on its own. These systems are improving just by virtue of humanity sort of having a different engagement with it. And so I'm hopeful the same way that like, on the other side of this, maybe those are some of the lessons that are ingrained and in place for how we do pandemic planning, how we ensure meaningful access and tantamount communication for people with disabilities during these times. I don't know if I would call it a great clearing offer or whatever, but as society there is going to be movement, there is going to be change. And it's important and it's incumbent on whoever our leaders are and whoever our community leaders and our stakeholders are to make sure that that change is representative of all of the principles that disability rights advocates have fought for 30, 40, 50 years to make sure we're in place, rather than in two years looking back and wondering how we were ever tricked into believing that these laws and these protections actually applied and always applied. There can't be a breakdown in these sorts of constitutional questions, these sorts of liberty questions. The Supreme Court Olmstead decision was 21 years ago. I don't think that the court was considering how these integration mandates worked in a pandemic situation. H1N1 gave many states a chance to put pen to paper on pandemic planning. But as we see when these moments happen, there tends to be a lot of calamity and public engagement on the front end and there's a moment in time where the most important thing in the world is figuring this out and planning, but then when H1N1 or a different moment in time has gone, it sort of wanes away. We can't let that happen here. And not just because this was different than H1N1, because we need to learn from this. We need to learn what personal communication and connectedness means, we need to learn how to ensure access and inclusion to as many people as possible including our democratic systems, and we need to make sure that, the things that I commit myself to fullest, in terms of our federal civil rights protections, how they apply and how they apply to create equity and inclusion mean something. If we have a chance to talk in the future, I hope that we come back to this line of conversation and we realize that they did mean something. Mark Miller: Right, right. Yeah. Marissa: Hey, Tony. I just want to add to both you and Mark's point about maybe there are some everlasting silver linings. I think that, up until this point, there may still have been people who didn't fully understand the criticality of digital accessibility but when you're talking about people being able to access online discussions or forums or even getting messages from our leaders about where to find resources and all of these, if the website, if the app is not accessible, then they are effectively blocked out. All of this hard work to include the community is mitigated, it's lost. And I think it brings it out into stark contrast. Tony DePalma: And to go back to the voting discussion. Last fall, a lot of the nominees for president in the run up to the debate, they were called out for their website accessibility, and the information not being truly accessible. Again, for presidential candidates, that's something you can probably solve in a weekend. Put some money down, get your website accessible. Whether or not you come back and do that meaningfully because you care about people with disabilities engaging with your candidacy or not, or just to get a bad headline to go away, those types of things were all resolved pretty quick. Like you're saying, now that so many of our systems depend on this accessibility and connectedness and now that so much vital and urgent public information is pushed through these channels, every county, every city, every state, every industry, every trade group, needs to make sure that what they're saying to the world is being accessed by the most number of people possible and where it's not perfect, or where they get called out on doing a bad job, they think about that and fix the problem. Mark Miller: We can have that. Marissa: Most definitely. Tony DePalma: That makes website accessibility audits recession-proof or something but [inaudible 00:41:20] to look at all of these systems in every single regard. Mark Miller: Yeah. Well, it's about accommodation. Title III of the ADA that you talked about, that we were all excited about in the 90s, it says places of public accommodation need to be accessible to people with disabilities. And right now we do our banking on the web, we eat on the web. A lot of these delivery places, they're getting a boon right now because people are having food delivered, but they rely oftentimes on apps or web. It's just part of the whole. It's just part of being able to access the public spaces and do things that other people do normally. And a particular passion of Marissa and I is because that's what we do for work, is to make sure that websites are accessible. Tony DePalma: And you guys do it tremendously. The reason we're all in touch is because, Mark, I believe you were nice enough to do a podcast for our organization on Disability Right Florida's podcast space. Mark Miller: I think it was almost a year ago. Tony DePalma: Just a year ago, right. These types of conversations in relationships should be cultivated and kept. Mark Miller: Yeah, and we have had a really long-standing great relationship with you guys on a couple of different levels so we appreciate that. And of course, we just appreciate what you do. It's wonderful that those groups out there... Tony, it's not a job for you. I can hear it in your voice when you talk about it that, you're doing this because it's something that you believe in and that you're passionate about. That shows and that's wonderful. That's the kind of people that we need in positions like yours is people [inaudible 00:43:07]- Tony DePalma: Thanks, Mark. Thank you. Mark Miller: ... passionate. We need to wrap up, we've actually gone for quite a while here. I really appreciate you coming in and sharing. There's a lot of the political or I shouldn't say political, but I don't know, kind of administer, however you want to state it, some of those things behind the scenes that you're really so in touch with that the average person like me doesn't necessarily see, so for me, in particular, it was very interesting to hear you talk about those things. Because, when I think about the challenges I think about, how do you get out of your house? How do you not contract the virus if you're touching... like I said in the beginning. And those are all important, but you see it on a very deep and sort of multi-layered level, I don't know about you, Marissa, but to me that was very fascinating and very interesting. Like you've said, and this transcends what we're talking about right now but the hope is that we really learn from this situation and that we... I think the world it's, come together in a way, just across a lot of boundaries and I think that that's wonderful and I'd like to see that continue. But I hope we find our lessons. We won't be perfect with all of them but we do need to be perfect with enough of them to make a difference and that's, I think, the point that you made that I really appreciate the most. With that, we need to wrap it up. Any last words? Anything else you want to wrap up with, Tony? Tony DePalma: Just that I'd love to come back when this is all over and hopefully I'll have the mustache gone and [inaudible 00:44:45] like I normally do. Mark Miller: We appreciate you being upfront about the mustache but Marissa and I just assumed that you were a huge old school Magnum P.I. fan. That's not the case? Tony DePalma: Right. Church of Selleck, for sure. Mark Miller: Hey, look. It looks good. It looks powerful. I think it's giving you some authority on the podcast. You've got to own the mustache. Marissa: It's a commanding presence. Mark Miller: Commanding presence. That's right. Tony DePalma: Don't lie to me, Mark. Mark Miller: Hey, I've never seen you without a mustache, Tony, so what do you want? Tony DePalma: Soon you will. Soon you will. Mark Miller: Okay. All right. Well, when that's gone, I want you to give me a call. Tony DePalma: Absolutely. Mark Miller: We'll get a picture of you and we'll put it up next to this podcast then [inaudible 00:45:30]. Marissa: Before and after picture. Tony DePalma: Sounds good. Mark Miller: Before and after picture. Seriously, thank you so much. Marissa, thank you, for being on. Marissa's our producer so we really appreciate you pulling all this together. Great podcast. This is Mark Miller, thanking Tony and Marissa, and reminding you to keep it accessible. Speaker 1: The IAP, Interactive Accessibility Podcast, is brought to you by interactive accessibility. The accessibility experts. You can find their access matters blog at interactiveaccessibility.com/blog.