- [Kari] Good morning and good afternoon. My name is Kari Kernen. I am the Sales Development Director here at TBGi. We're gonna wait one more minute before we get started. So just hang tight, give it another couple minutes for people to finish getting logged in here. Thank you for joining everyone and welcome to today's webinar on JAWS Inspect. Undertaking the JAWS Screen Reader compatibility testing in real life with Al Puzzuoli and Mike DeSorda. Just wanna go through a couple housekeeping items before we get things started. The session is being recorded and we will email everyone the recording after the event. We have captions available, so feel free to use them as needed. And lastly, we're gonna save some time for live Q and A after. So please use the Q and A box. We'll answer as many of the questions as we can at the end of the presentation. If we don't get to your questions for the presentations over, someone will be in touch with you sometime after to make sure we get all questions answered here. And with that, I'll let the presenters get started. Provide an introduction on themselves, Mike. - [Mike] Yeah thank you, Kari. Appreciate it. Welcome everybody as well from me. What we would like to do now is we'll do a little, couple little introductions of Al and myself, and then I will take back control this a little bit and explain what we're going to do. And then Al will start the actual demonstration. So Al would you mind introducing yourself and giving your background? - [Al] Sure. Hello everybody. My name is Al Puzzuoli. I am in my fifth year with TPGi now. Time really flies. I have been a screen reader user myself for over 20 years. Prior to my time at TPGi, I worked at Michigan State University, did IT for the disability office there and also assisted students with their assistive technology and assisted the university with accessibility testing. I've also done customer support for screen reader products. So I've really kind of worn many hats in the industry, both as a user, as a vendor, as an educator, et cetera. - [Mike] Thank you, Al. My name is Mike DeSorda. As you can see on the screen, I'm the manager of customer success in our Customer Success Department here at TPGi. I have been with TPGi now about two and a half years, but I have more decades I like to mention in the software business as one kind of a manager, another typically throughout my career. So that's my background and my time here with TPGi. I wanna explain a little bit what we're going to be doing today, and then I'll turn over to Al to start the demonstration. And as Kari said, please save your questions to the end. Al and I get into a flow here that's important to not be interrupted. What we're going to attempt to do today is Al is a screen reader, he is going to show you how a screen reader would utilize JAWS on a particular website, a little test demo website we have, and he's gonna take you through that experience. And then I am going to demonstrate JAWS Inspect using the same website and showing you how JAWS Inspect can show you in report format, written format, what Al will be demonstrating in a verbal format. And the reason for JAWS Inspect as you might guess, is primarily for testers that don't need or want JAWS itself as a way to check the accessibility of any particular webpage, but rather want it in a written form in a report format, so that they can do testing in that way. So that's kind of our objective today and with that said, I'm gonna stop sharing my screen here with the title page, and I'm gonna turn over to Al to begin the demo. - [Al] Okay thanks Mike. I'm going to start sharing my screen. It's telling me I cannot start screen share while the other participant is sharing. Are you still sharing Mike? - [Mike] I am. I'm going to try to stop sharing. Here I see. Not, oh, here we go. Stop there. There we go. - [Al] Okay. - [Mike] That's the right button. Thank you. Goodnight Al. - [Al] Okay, there we go. We should now be sharing and you should now be also hearing, what you're hearing is JAWS at a very fast rate. This is, as I said, I've been using screen reader, especially JAWS for well over probably 25 years. And as you use a screen reader, your efficiency speeds up and your rate of reading the words that you hear speeds up. So I've got this thing reading at a very high rate and most users who have been using it for any length of time tend to crank their rate up. I'm going to demonstrate initially what this sounds like from my day to day, and then I will slow it down to a more sensible speed for everyone else here in a minute. What we are looking at here here is the test website that we are going to illustrate our findings on. And I'm going to just have JAWS do what is called sale, and the sale command will just read the webpage from top to bottom. And I'm going to do this at the fast speed. And then I'm going to slow JAWS down after that. And as I said, from then on, I will proceed at a more sensible pace that everyone else can understand. So here goes JAWS. Okay. So here we go. And that was the fast version of the site. I'm going to change speech synthesizers now. - [Screen Reader] Mater Money Financial. - [Al] And that should sound a lot more casual for everyone. Now, as I read through this webpage, there are several different ways that I can navigate the page. And the most straightforward is just to either use the sale or the arrow keys. I'm gonna just down arrow through the content here for a minute. - [Screen Reader] Heading level two link, Mater Money Financial Services, blank, heading level one, Mater Money Financial Services, blank, heading level three, serving clients since 1952. Blank, link main office colon 2 1 2 dash 5 5 5 dash 1 2 1 2. - [Al] So we've got several heading levels and the heading levels are a little bit strange. They seem like they're kind of out of order. Let me just navigate by heading levels, just to kind of get a sense of what we have going on. So if I hit H, it's gonna take me to the first H level. - [Screen Reader] Mater Money Financial Services heading level two link. - [Al] So we've got a MaTer Money Financial Services heading level two. I'm gonna hit H again. - [Screen Reader] Mater Money Financial Services heading level one. - [Al] And now under the H two, we have an H one with the same name. - [Screen Reader] Serving clients since 1952 heading level three. - [Al] Serving clients since 1952 is H three. - [Screen Reader] About us heading level two. - [Al] About us is heading two. - [Screen Reader] Serving clients since 1952 heading level three. - [Al] And now we have the same serving clients since 1952 heading again. - [Screen Reader] Practice areas heading level two. - [Al] The headings are repetitive and they're in an order that just does not seem very sensible to me as a screen reader user, that the structure of the page does not make a lot of sense. Another way I can navigate the page is just by hitting the tab key. And if I hit the tab key, we're gonna move through each focusable element of the page. So let's do it that way. - [Screen Reader] Mater Money Financial Services heading level two link. Main office colon 2 1 2 dash 5 5 5 dash 1 2 1 2 link. - [Al] Okay, so far so good. - [Screen Reader] Edit. - [Al] Oh, what do we have here? Edit. - [Screen Reader] Edit. - [Al] Edit. - Edit. - Edit. - [Screen Reader] Contact, send mail link, contact, send mail link. - [Al] So you've got a bunch of edit fields and a bunch of contact send mail links with no context. These links from what I am perceiving right now are just sort of drifting out in space. I have no idea who they're going to mail or what those edit boxes are going to do. Let me go back. - [Screen Reader] Contact, edit, edit, edit, blank, heading level three. - [Al] Now I'm arrowing to try and get a little more granularity. - [Screen Reader] Blank, edit, edit, edit, link send greater. - [Al] Now we just have send links. - [Screen Reader] Heading level three, Mater Money Financial, heading level three in just over six, contact, send mail link, heading level two, Rachel Bloom. - [Al] And if I arrow through these, I can then see who the each associated link is associated with, but it's confusing at best to navigate these contact links. So let's keep tabbing. - [Screen Reader] Contact, send mail link, contact send mail link, phone number colon 2 1 2 dash 5 5 5 dash 1 2 1 2 link. Social media slash six Facebook link graphic. - [Al] And now we've got some unlabeled, well, I mean the label of the link is coming up as social media slash link Facebook graphic. So I can assume that that's a Facebook link. It could be labeled more clearly. - [Screen Reader] Social media slash six Twitter link graphic. - [Al] Same thing with Twitter. - [Screen Reader] Social media slash six Google Plus link graphic. - [Al] We've got the Google Plus link. So essentially there are some issues on this page. Primarily we've got some structure issues with heading levels, not making sense. And we've got form fields that don't have field labels, as well as some links that are not labeled well. So those are the primary issues on the page. And I am going to turn it back over to Mike, who can illustrate his findings with JAWS Inspect. - [Screen Reader] Meeting control. - [Mike] All right. Thank you Al. I appreciate that. Start sharing my screen and we'll move over to the JAWS Inspect side, and everybody should be seeing the same exact website that Al just showed. We call it The Mater Money Financial Services website. So what you just saw is Al demonstrating a role as a user of JAWS. I think hopefully most of people were familiar with JAWS being the preeminent screen reader in the world. And so not only did he demonstrated, take on the role as a user using JAWS, as Al mentioned, he is an actual JAWS user. So you saw this in a very, very realistic way. Now I'm gonna take on the role of, in an organization as a tester to determine whether or not any particular webpage that we may be responsible for is behaving well with JAWS as a screen reader. In other words, how accessible is it for the screen reader and how is it behaving? And so I'm going to show you two or three reports, how they work. I'm gonna explain those and I'm gonna do my best to sort of map back to some of the challenges that Al mentioned as he was going through the screen reading process with JAWS. And you'll see them in written form now in reports. So in order to invoke JAWS Inspect, anytime, once you've purchased it and you have installed it and licensed it, I'm gonna show you how to invoke that in a moment. A couple of things I would like to say ahead of time, just because these questions come up a lot. So first thing I wanna mention is that you do not need to own and license JAWS itself to own and license JAWS Inspect. So what you're about ready to see me do in terms of invoking several reports that will transcribe JAWS, you don't need to have JAWS itself. Just so keep that in mind. The other thing I always wanna mention is 'cause I get this question a lot, is that keep in mind that JAWS Inspect obviously is a companion product to JAWS and will display for me the output, the verbal output of JAWS, but it is not an application, JAWS Inspect is not an application that refers back to any particular accessibility standards themselves. So sometimes people think they're going to see that that's not what you're gonna see in a moment if I wanna get that outta the way, 'cause that question comes up a lot. We do have other products and obviously a lot of products around the world, but we certainly do ourselves that if you need to scan through websites and determine whether or not accessibility standards like WCAG standards are being met or not, there are platforms that do that. And we have some of those too and if that's something of interest, you get in touch with us about that. And lastly, last thing I want to note is that we do have standalone licensed versions of these at the client level, but we also have network versions as well. So just keep that in mind. I'm not gonna get into details about all that today, but I just kind of want to get that out there. Okay, so with all those question answers outta the way that I anticipated, I'm going to now show you JAWS Inspect. So the way you always invoke JAWS Inspect is you hold the control key down your keyboard and you right click, and as you can see, a little popup menu appears. There are several commands here, as you can see, I'm not gonna go through all of these today. We don't have time and it's not really necessary. Today's objective is to give you kind of a general idea of what JAWS Inspect can do for you. But I am gonna go through two or three of these reports, but just keep in mind as you can see there's many other bells and whistles here that have more specific objectives in mind when you use them. What I'm going to do today is go through the full page report. I'll probably do that first. I'm gonna go through the Say-All report. I'm gonna do the Show ARIA Live report, and I'm going to go through the Speech report. Those are the four I wanna show you today, at least briefly to give you an idea. Now, if you wanna see the JAWS, the JAWS output categorized by HTML elements, then the full page report is what you would want to run. So I'm gonna do that right now. When I do this, you're gonna see the page starts scrolling through, which is a good sign. That means that we're scrolling, we're on the back end going through it and pulling out all the JAWS verbiage into a report format categorized by HTML element. So here we go. And there we go. And when it's done doing its thing, it's just going to pop up a new tab here as you can see in the active browser, I have. I happen to be using Chrome, and we'll show you the report. The header of the report, obviously. Name of the report shows you what the URL I was using that I just crawled through. Date and time, what browser I'm using and the JAWS and JAWS Inspect versions, JAWS Inspect does have some components from JAWS itself embedded in here. And that's why you see both of these versions. But down here in the body of the report where the meat is, let's kind of go there. You can see that it found links, controls, heading and graphics as HTML elements. It just so happens this page that's all there really is. Obviously there are many, many more, depending on the page you have, but the principles I'm gonna take you through today would be the same regardless. So let's just open up links to start with and kind of says what it means. And first thing I wanna do is kind of just go through the header of the report here and explain these fields. So select is like any software you can see these days. You can select all or individual rows here. If you later want to export the information, the rows out to a CSV file. And I'll just say up front here that any and all reports you see here today, you can export out a CSV file. Why might you want to do that? Because you might wanna get the information, selected information out of JAWS Inspect into a format or an application where you can track it for remediation purposes, right? Maybe even upload it into a problem management system, some sort that you may own. So that's the primary reason, and I'm not gonna show all that. Just know that all reports can do that very easily just with the click of a button. The JAWS speech output is kind of obvious. That is what JAWS speech itself is expressing. Everything here in black is the actual content on the page. Everything in dark bold green here is the extra context that JAWS provides the screen reader so that they have a sort of a sense of what the element's about or what the component's all about. The HREF, since this is a link, it's kind of obvious that's just the HTML references of the links, the attributes of the anchor tag there. The screenshot is kind of obvious. This is a great way if you wanna go back and look on the screen where that particular piece of real estate is on the screen. Code can be a very powerful feature here. If I click code, you can see that the HTML snippet itself associated with this particular row shows up, pops up. And the reason this can be very valuable is if you're a tester and you detect something in here that you want to have remediated, and you wanna get that over to a development department and a developer to do some remediations, you can always copy and send that over to them. And that way they have a string that they can use as a search string in order to, on the millions of lines of code, and maybe that they're dealing with on a daily basis, they would be able to find that and start working on that very quickly. So just a matter of highlighting it and cognitive and sending off. Locate is a field that we're working on. Right now, it's a little funky, but the purpose of this locate field is it will have that little kind of map, Google map symbol on here. And if you click on it, it would highlight back on the page itself the part of the page that this particular, any particular row is referencing. And finally ID is unique ID. The reason we give you a unique ID again, is if you wanna track any issues or problems that you may note here uniquely. And so if we can find that in the code, we'll put the ID here from the code. If we can't find, we'll just give you our own ID that you can use. And of course, once you get it out of JAWS Inspect, you can certainly use your own IDs as well. But that's what the header here is all about. Now, how do we interpret this? Now notice, as I said earlier, that there's nothing here referencing any sort of accessibility standards, number one. Number two, there is no red flashing, blinking lights here showing you that there's a problem. You have to go through and put your JAWS user hat on, so to speak and determine whether or not there could be any potential challenges to a screen reader as you read through this. So for example, I'm just gonna pick this main office number here, main office link with a phone number and its called a link. It lets the user know it's a link. That's probably perfectly fine. That's probably understandable by a screen reader and we don't really need to do anything about that. But if you look at the one below it, we have send link and that's all it's expressing. And that is obviously not enough information for a screen reader to make any sort of sense out of that. And so this is something you might wanna tag and say, "Hey, we need to maybe fix something up and make that a little bit more understandable to a screen reader." I think Al showed you this, there were contacts on that page and you can see that Al says is contacts send mail link again, it's probably not enough information, you might want to tag those to fix up. If I go back to the page, just to kind of show you, you can see as Al showed you, here's those contacts. As sighted person, you can see then, "Oh, okay, we have Alex and Rachel and Lara and I can contact these people if I need to." But to the screen reader, listening to this, that's just not enough information here. And then we have kind of a get started link down here. Another one I usually like to show, but again, it's kind of get started with what? You have no idea what is to get started with. So that might be something I want to tag as something to improve upon. So that's links, under controls, under these edit boxes, here are those three form fields that just said, edit, edit, edit. I'm gonna show you those as well that Al showed you. Again, Al expressed how that was a little frustrating. Didn't really know what that was all about. It's not enough information. And I can concur with that in this report as well. Graphics, you can see, the one I like to show here is to get missing image descriptions, open the context menu, unlabeled graphic. So we have an unlabeled graphic. We can see that somebody put quotation mark graphic here, which is probably fine, but it's not labeled. And that would be obviously not a good situation, with the the screen reader. So I can select all these and down here, were the export routines to send those into a CSV file, as I mentioned before. So that's what this report's all about. Again, it shows the speech output, but categorized by HTML, if that's a way you would like to slice and dice it. All right, so I'm gonna move back to the webpage and I'm gonna go to the next report I'd like to show and Al mentioned this report or this feature in JAWS when he was using it, and that's the Say-All reports. So for situations where a screen reader might want to just simply hear everything from top to bottom, top left to bottom right so to speak, on a page, and by the way, these are always page by page. It's not gonna be scanning a whole website. You have to do it on the active page that you're on. I can mimic that same feature that Al was showing in JAWS, in JAWS Inspect, but in a report format. But it's effectively the same thing. Just gonna be showing in written form now. So as I click this again, you're gonna see the page start scrolling and that's a good sign. And then we're just gonna get that report again on a tab here in just a moment. And the good thing about this report is instead of the previous report where you saw categorized, this puts everything in actual context of how the page is actually rendered to the screen reader in the order that it is rendered to the screen reader. So as you can see here, as I scroll down, I can see in highlighted yellow here, the extra verbiage that is provided to the screen reader, everything in black is the actual content on the page. And you might have remembered Al even mentioned, he goes, you know, it was a little confusing all these headers. You kind of had header 2, then 1, then 3 then 3, 2, 3, 2, and you can see that me as a tester, I could pull this up and I could see that myself and go, "Oh, I can see what he's complaining about now. This is a little confusing. Maybe we could do a little bit better job at designing how the headers flow to make more sense to the JAWS users. This is a great way to go through here and make sure everything is in a logical order. Make sure everything is providing a good context around all the content and make sure that from top to bottom, it would make sense to a screen reader. If you want to see the other attributes that you saw before on the previous report, you can always go to this table view. And now you can see the same fields that you saw on the full page report earlier. And this would be a way if you wanted to pick anything out here that you wanted again, to track outside of JAWS Inspect and get into a CSV file, you could, but otherwise it is showing you the same kind of information. So that's the Say-All report and the value of the Say-All report. And, so I'm gonna move on to the next report right now. So the next report I like to show is the Speech Viewer report. And the reason I like to show this is because as Al showed you, especially when Al's familiar with the page any screen readers familiar with the page, they're probably gonna arrow through and tab through the page and get to the content and get to the features and functions they need to or want to on that page as quickly as they can. Very experienced screen readers are very adept at this. So as a tester, I want to mimic that, what a screen reader, JAWS screen reader is gonna do by tapping through and arrowing through the page to make sure that JAWS Inspect, if I see JAWS Inspect picking that up in report format here, then I can be confident that the JAWS experience is proper. So if I choose this particular report, you can see this pops up a little bit differently. This is kind of a floating report. And all I have to do is go back to the page itself, just put the focus back on there and you can see we already have something started and now I'm gonna do like Al did right. Now I'm gonna do this a little randomly, but I'm gonna arrow through and I'm gonna tab through and you can see as I do that, I can see what element by element, component by component, what JAWS is expressing. And this way I can mimic what I call a user journey, a JAWS user journey, a JAWS user's user journey through a webpage, just to be sure that again, it makes sense and it's logical and all that good stuff. So again, this could be, you can stop this and restart it if you wanna jump around on a page, you can clear and start over and you can save it all if you'd like to a CSV file to get it out there. So, this can be a very important report as well, trying to mimic a user journey, a JAWS user's journey through a webpage. And the last thing I'd like to show is ARIA Live. Some of you out there may use ARIA Live to push changing content to your webpages. This is a web page that if you look down here, it's talking about some information, some facts about Florida, the state of Florida. And as you can see every few seconds this down here, this information changes. So I wanna know is JAWS picking up those changes? So if I invoke my menu again and I click show ARIA Live, again, this is more of a floating menu. And I put the focus back on the webpage. I'm just gonna wait a moment. And as the content changes, I wanna make sure it's being picked up and yep, sure enough it is. As you can see, I'll let it go another couple rounds. But this tells me, this gives me confidence that as the content is changing, JAWS is picking up that content change and expressing that to the user as well. So I can feel confident that that's happening. If I don't see anything being populated here and that would give me pause to look into possible problem there. So again, you can clear, pause it, save it, save it out as a CSV file again, as you like. So that's pretty much the reports I'd like to show you. Some of the other features. There are more, if you wanna kind of hone down on very specific elements or components on a page only, you have that ability to do that. There is an admin part of the application and we'll get into today, but you can customize a little bit and you can get help, there's help system in there and that sort of thing. And there was one last thing in my mind wanted to note, but I lost it off my head, sorry. It'll probably come back to me before we finish all our questions. Oh, I know what it was. So the one question we get a lot is does JAWS Inspect work with, let's just say more kind of advanced features on a webpage and that would be like pull-out menus, hamburger menus, carousels, whatever. There's a number of things that are very advanced these days with webpages. And the answer is, it depends. The answer is if JAWS itself is rendering that information, then JAWS Inspect will likewise render that information on these reports. And that's a good thing in a way, because if you're using JAWS Inspect and you're going, "Gee, that's funny, I have this pop out menu and I'm not really seeing the report here," that could very well mean that JAWS itself is not able to render that information. And you may have a design change. You might wanna look into to make sure that JAWS does in fact, interpret those sorts of components and features properly and go back and change some things. And then it will work. So I get that question a lot as well. I believe that's it for me, Al. Anything you wanna add that I may have forgotten or that you'd like to embellish here that we talked about? - [Al] I think that's it. Unless we have some questions, there'll probably be some things to cover there, but I think we've touched on most of it. - [Mike] Okay and we do have a question in here. Does the CSV export include the code? If you mean the code snippet that I showed earlier in this report here, the answer is, I don't know. I would have to go look, I'm sorry, but I would have to kind of go check that out. So Stuart, I'll get back with you. I'm gonna take a note of your name here, Stuart and I will get back. Yeah. Okay how to activate speech viewer in JAWS ASAP? how to activate speech viewer in JAWS ASAP? - [Al] I'm not clear what that means. And in JAWS Inspect, you can activate the speech viewer from either the desktop icon menu or in the web browser if you control right click, you can activate the viewer from there. I don't know if that answers the question. - [Mike] Yeah. He's talking about JAWS it sounds. - [Al] Yeah JAWS doesn't really have a speech viewer. It has a speech history that the screen reader user can refer to, but there is not necessarily a speech viewer in JAWS. - Yeah so the speech viewer keep in mind is only in JAWS Inspect mimicking a user's journey like Al would've done through that webpage, right? So it's not a feature per se in JAWS itself. And what Al did in JAWS or Al did on the webpage using JAWS was simply navigate through that page. And the the speech viewer picks up that same sort of journey. Why is this so much more expensive than JAWS itself? So that's not a question we can answer here. We're not sales. So I'm sure that Kari will get back with any sales questions to the appropriate sales people that can answer any sort of pricing questions. So thank you Stuart for the questions. Any other question? I see there's couple chat things here. How does the CSV export include, okay that's the same thing. How can I see the text viewer in the free version? Is that the Say-All? Okay. So let's talk about a free version. There's no such thing as a free version per se of JAWS or JAWS Inspect but what you might be referring to Regina, I'm just assuming is what we call kind of a demo version of JAWS Inspect. So you can download a demo version of JAWS Inspect from our website. And what that does is give you full capability of all the features and functions in JAWS Inspect, but it just will restrict how many rows are returned. It's not gonna return every single row that it can find on a webpage because then that would be a full version. And the beauty of that is you can see how it works and there's no real time limit on the trial that you would get with that software, because we're restricting the data that's returned. So maybe that's what you were referring to. And if so, that's the answer to that. Okay Al, we have something else here. What reports can I use for inspecting PDF file? Oh, great question, Anne, and I'm sorry. I meant to bring that up proactively. And that probably was what was on my mind a couple of moments ago. We do have a report, the speech viewer report that I showed you earlier, which I'll bring up again, just to kind of show you. The one that we use to kind of mimic a user journey through the webpage. Not this particular one you're seeing, but we have a version of this that is specifically for PDF files. And in fact, it's really, for almost any sort of desktop content application out there, works with Word. It works with pretty much anything, but it's definitely worked with PDF files and it provides the same kind of information. So if you're going to render your PDF file in Adobe Acrobat itself and sort of in a desktop way, then we have a report that looks exactly like this Anne, that would provide that information to you. Now, of course, the PDF files, you can always render them in a web browser too. And if you do that any and all these reports you saw earlier would also work if you decided just have it in a tab in a web browser somewhere. So, hope that answers your question. Okay, let me get rid of this. So that was the last question we had from Anne. If there's anybody else has any other further questions, we'll wait a moment or two here. If you wanna pop 'em into the Q and A box here. - [Al] Meanwhile, one thing I'd like to talk about real quick are the licensing options. We offer JAWS Inspect licenses as single user licenses, which you buy on a per desktop machine basis, or we offer it as a server license. In the server license model, you buy a license with multiple seats. Usually we sell them in lots of five and you install that license on a centralized server. And then clients reach out to that server to request a token. And that's usually done in some enterprises and that sort of thing, but one decision or one element of that decision tree, whether you want the network license or the standalone licenses is if you already have a freedom scientific product, such as JAWS, look at how your organization is licensing that product. And you typically want to license JAWS Inspect using the same licensing model as JAWS for ease of deployment. - [Mike] Thank you. A couple more questions popping in now. How does JAWS treat double dashes? - [Al] Double dashes? I don't know that it treats them. I mean, I don't even hear them. So there's something in JAWS called a punctuation repeat filter, and you can set that. And I think the default is two or more. So it may say, let me try it real quick. I don't even know if I've noticed it. See, I have my punctuation set to no punctuation all the time, so I don't even hear punctuation unless I'm doing things like programming or that sort of thing. But if I set my punctuation higher, it will say two dashes, but it'll reach a threshold. And that threshold is configurable where after a certain number, it filters them out. You know, if there's like a whole line going dash, dash, dash, you don't wanna hear that. So there's, what's called the repeat filter. - [Mike] Okay. Thanks Al. Next question for Mo is we have 20 JAWS licenses. That's great Mo, but they're only gonna need five JAWS Inspects. Is that possible? Yes, it's absolutely possible. And there's no correlation Mo between how many JAWS licenses you have and how many JAWS Inspect license you may have. Whatever your needs are, they can be separated in that way. What is the cost again, Al and I are not really the cost experts here. We're more on the engineering side of things. But I'm sure someone will get back with you Mo with regard to the cost on that. In fact, we have people by the way, that they don't own themselves any JAWS licenses, they just have customers of some sort that or users of some sort, there may not be an organization that they know happen to use JAWS. So they only buy JAWS Inspects to be sure that their webpages are behaving properly for their JAWS users. They may not be internal JAWS users. They could be some external JAWS users. Wait. Looks like maybe there's, yep. Good. Okay great. More questions coming in Al. Stuart again, with the server license version, does it support concurrent use? If so, how many concurrent users? Al, I'll turn that over to you. - Okay. That depends on how many seats you want to purchase. It does support concurrent use. The default number when you buy the network license is five users and you can increment that in quantities of five. We've got some institutions that have 10, 15, 20, you know, however many you wanna buy. - [Mike] Jock is asking, does a content creator writer like himself use JAWS? So Jock, I don't know the context. I don't know exactly your situation, but I'm going to interpret this meaning that you're a sighted person and you create content and you write, and you're wondering if JAWS would be something you would use to make sure that JAWS is expressing what you're creating. You could do that. People do do that, right? You saw what Al did, even as a sighted person Jock, if you are, you could use JAWS to listen to what your content is on a webpage and determine if JAWS is interpreting that the way you want. But one reason JAWS Inspect exists is because that can be very laborious, right? You might have to run it several times until you're picking it up. You might have to, you have to transcribe it yourself, right? You might have to take notes as you go through. Whereas JAWS Inspect kind of its purpose is to present that all to you written format at your fingertips. So you don't have to go through that laborious nature of trying to transcribe yourself from JAWS, the content on a webpage that you may have been creating. - [Al] And another thing I'd like to add to that too, is if you have the patience and you're willing to put in the time to become a JAWS user who is able to traverse webpages relatively well and read with JAWS, that's commendable, and that's a great skill to have, but that said, it's not realistic to expect that if you've never used a screen reader before, you're not gonna sit down with a screen reader and become proficient enough in a couple hours to effectively assess how well a page is reading with JAWS. So that's another reason JAWS Inspect can be a time saver. If you're a proficient JAWS user, by all means use JAWS. If you're not, then your options are either take the time to become a proficient JAWS user. Or if you don't have the time to do that, then JAWS Inspect is there for you. - [Mike] Thank you Al. That was a a good add to that questions. We'll wait another few seconds here in case anybody's thinking of any final questions. I know we're, I think we have a few more minutes left. I don't wanna rush this off if people have more questions. It looks like something's coming in out. Can JAWS Inspect poetry appropriately? I'm not sure what that means exactly. Can JAWS Inspect poetry appropriately? - [Al] I don't know what that means. I mean, it's gonna show whatever JAWS speaks. But that's about really- - [Mike] So if you have a poem on there and it is just text poem on a page, Al would hear it with JAWS and any of the reports I showed you would show you that same content, whether it's poetry or prose, either way, it's going to show you. Erica is asking, how would you determine someone's proficiency with JAWS? Oh, that's a great question. And that will have to go to Al for the answer. - [Al] Yeah, I mean, there are, Freedom Scientific actually offers a JAWS certification exam and some training material. So you could go through those things. It's really kind of a hard thing to measure. I think one thing that really you wanna do, if you wanna become a proficient JAWS user is 90% of learning to use JAWS or any other screen reader is really about using windows or learning to use windows without your mouse. So if you're comfortable take that mouse, tuck it behind your monitor, unplug it, whatever the case may be, don't use your mouse. Can you get around your computer? Can you never get a webpage? That's one measure how proficient you are with JAWS. - [Mike] And now how long would you say it takes an average person, maybe with some time spent on it to start becoming reasonably proficient? - [Al] It really depends on the person and whatever, but probably at least months, it's not gonna happen in a few days or weeks. - [Mike] Stuart is asking, can you alter the viscosity of the crawl? - [Al] I don't understand what that means 'cause I mean, JAWS Inspect doesn't crawl. JAWS Inspect basically takes a snapshot of the page as is. It's not crawling the page. If you do a sale report, it's going to read what's on the current web page. If you do a full page report, it's gonna show you the elements on the current webpage. It does not crawl through the site. - [Mike] Yeah and I probably used the word crawl maybe be because it scrolls through, it looks kind of like it's crawling through. So I did. I'm sorry, Stuart, if I kind of steered you wrong in that, I probably used the wrong term to use maybe when I was doing a demo. Anonymous person asks, does JAWS interact with video players on a webpage Al? - [Al] JAWS does interact, well, JAWS will display controls in a video player. If those controls are coded accessibly if the right, if buttons are buttons or the right ARIA is used or whatever, and JAWS Inspect will show those controls in the full page report. What JAWS Inspect cannot show you is dynamically you know how those controls are working and whatever. So then you need to go in with JAWS and see if I hit play or whatever, is it gonna work? I just heard a question come in about, I don't know if we're taking these in order Mike, about JAWS Inspect inspect being accessible. - [Mike] I don't see that here, but go ahead. Just answer the question. - [Al] Yeah. Yeah absolutely. The way to invoke JAWS Inspect from within a webpage is we tell people control right click is the way to do it, but you can also do control applications key. And that will allow you to bring up the context menu there also what we call layered keystrokes. With JAWS, if you do like a insert space, and then I, that brings you to the inspect layer. So like insert space I one for example, will bring up a full page report. There are other ones, but yeah, absolutely. I'm a JAWS user as well and I can use Inspect. - [Mike] Ron asks, can JAWS describe images on a webpage or just text? - [Al] Well, JAWS does not describe images. The alt text of the image will describe the image for you. So that's a distinction there. JAWS will say image, blah, blah, blah, and give it some weird label if there's no alt text there. There are some services that will OCR an image or try to describe an image, but they don't replace good alt text. - [Mike] Okay Megan asks, I work for a company that uses a store finder on their website. Okay, we're using putting the zip code right and a map with the store locations generated where our products are sold. Are you familiar with how JAWS interacts with a store finder? You probably have used that yourself Al. - [Al] Yeah and again, it depends on your particular store finder how was it developed? Is there text there? Is it just a graphical map? If it's a graphical map, is there alt text? Is it giving me a list of addresses or is it just all a visual map? There are a lot of different caveats there, so you'd really need to run JAWS Inspect against it and or JAWS. - [Mike] Okay anonymous asked just because the screen reader can interact with a webpage does not mean, it makes sense. Well, that's true. Like automatically pulling the file name for an alt text. So should clarify that since you just said turning off the mouse is a valid test. - [Al] Right, I mean, I think that that's one of the tests. There's not one test that's going to measure your proficiency with a screen reader. It's can you use the computer without the mouse? Can you navigate the webpage by headings or links or whatever? Do you know JAWS well enough to say, "Oh, this is a table. This is how I read a table with JAWS." You know, I can go on. - [Mike] Yeah. Thanks Al. Jock asks a good question. Does designer developer use JAWS Inspect? How can I ensure that my content is done perfectly? Wow that's a good question. Who ensures that? Are both responsible? How common is it for new websites to be done incorrectly and full of errors regarding JAWS? All right. There's a lot to impact there Jock. So first of all, the users for JAWS Inspect can be developers. They can be designers, they can be testers, they can be QA people. They can be any of those sort of roles I just mentioned, really. If it's a small outfit where developer and tester's kind of the same person, they can do it that way. We typically have testers that do the testing and then ship on to the developers the remediation ask once they find something, but there is no answer to that. It can be any and all or any mix of the above to use JAWS Inspect. It just kind of depends on the nature of your use case. How can you ensure that my content is done perfectly? Well, I don't know how to answer that question specifically. I don't think there is anything such as perfect, but obviously most of our customers have QA departments or testing departments that check the content and make sure that JAWS, using JAWS Inspect that JAWS is interpreting it correctly and logically and perfectly, if that's what you're shooting for. And how common is it for our new website to be done incorrectly and full of errors regarding JAWS? Al's probably best to answer that. He's probably dealt with a lot of new websites out there. - [Al] Yeah, I mean, I think that most websites and honestly, when I hit a new website, I'm not looking for errors. You know, I mean, if there are minor issues, I'm just doing what I wanna do on that website and I'm not sitting there cataloging. So I don't even know is what I'm trying to say. Basically if I can do what I have to do on a website, I'm happy. If there's a severe issue, that's preventing me from doing what I need to do on the website, then I've got a problem. But you know, if there's a few links that are just a little bit strangely labeled or whatever, if I can kind of make out what they're gonna do, or if there's a click here, I think perfection is a hard goal to strive for. Another thing that I would say though, is QA departments do an amazing job of catching a lot of this stuff. But if at all possible, please try to involve screen reader users, and users with other disabilities in your testing process at some point before release, because that's when you're gonna really find your errors. That's when you're gonna really, when someone who lives, this stuff experiences your content, then you're gonna know. - [Mike] Thanks Al. Anonymous asked and yeah, anonymous we did answer this question, but we'll answer it again right here. Might have missed this at the beginning, but is JAWS Inspect a separate program? It needs to be purchased or simply accessible through JAWS? So the answer it's separate. It's a separate program, you don't have to own and license JAWS, however, to own and license JAWS Inspect. So keep that in mind anonymous if you get serious about that. Stuart asked, are there any plans to produce a similar product for ZoomText? - [Al] I don't know how that would work because you could run ZoomText and see visually what ZoomText is displaying on the page. If someone, a sighted user wants to test with ZoomText, it's a lot easier to do that than it is with JAWS. So I'm not quite sure how that would translate. - [Mike] Okay, that's the last question. We will wait another few seconds if there's any final questions. So these have all been fantastic questions. Good group of questions here. Thank you very much. Especially Stuart, Jock and several other viewers had a lot of good questions. All right. Well, I think something's coming in. Okay for example, testing against different types of color blindness. - [Al] Yeah well, see color is a hard thing to really detect with software. Like we don't have a good way. We have a color contrast analyzer tool that can tell you if your contrast is done right. But as far as testing against color blindness, I don't know, I don't know how that would work. I'm not saying we'll never do it, but I just don't know how we would do it personally. - [Mike] And Jock asked it's a good question Jock. Does TPGi do this sort of testing? So we do not offer a service where we do the JAWS Inspect testing for you if that's what you're asking. Now that said, just keep in mind Jock, we're an accessibility company in general, with lots of different aspects of accessibility, professional services. So one service we do offer through our Professional Services Group is to do manual accessibility reviews of websites, or webpages very extensively to test their accessibility in general, not against JAWS per se, but just generally against accessibility standards like WCAG standards. So that would, I think, answer your question Jock. Now, one thing I will say is if anybody here ends up licensing five or more licenses with JAWS Inspect, just to kind of piggyback on something I thought about with Jock's last question here is we do offer free onboarding. I do that. So I will take a group of people from any company, spend an hour with them and train them on the use of JAWS Inspect to far greater detail than you just saw today for the demo. So that is one thing we can certainly make your testing, Jock your testing group proficient with JAWS Inspect so that they can do it themselves. Well, I think we're kind of at time anyway. And I think that we'll assume that's the last question. I wanna thank you. I'm sure Al and I both actually wanna thank you for your attendance today. I hope you got something out of this. I'm gonna let Kari kind of wrap everything up with any final remarks if she has any housekeeping remarks and thanks again for your attendance and I hope you found found it interesting. - [Kari] Yes and just to reiterate, this has been recorded. A video will be sent out to everyone within a few days after the webinar. Also, if anyone needs any sort of support accessibility training, you can schedule appointment with our team by reaching out to ida@tpgi.com, or there will be a link in the email that goes out with the recording as well. - [Mike] Very good. - [Kari] Other than that, we appreciate everyone's time. Our next webinar will be coming up again in two weeks. So just check out the webinar section of our page to look at the upcoming webinars we have on the schedule. - [Mike] All right. Everyone have a great day. Thank you Al.