Speaker 1: Welcome to TPGis real people, real stories, podcast. We'll find interesting and diverse stories from folks working to make the world a more inclusive place. Mark Miller: Hey, welcome to the real people, real stories podcast brought to you by TPGi. I am your host to Mark Miller, thanking you for helping us keep it accessible. Do us a favor. If you're enjoying the real people, real stories podcast, share it. Tell someone about it, even link to it from your accessible website. Thank you everybody for joining today, I have a really interesting guest. We had a great pre-show conversation. I'm so excited to talk to her. Alicia Anderson, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining us. Also, I want to introduce Mike, who is our producer today. Marissa is off for a little while and Mike is stepped in and is doing a great job, filling her shoes and has brought Alicia to us. Alicia, am I saying that right? Alicia Anderson: It's Alicia, but I go by either- Mark Miller: Alicia. Alicia Anderson: -I get called all kinds. Mark Miller: Oh yeah. Alicia Anderson: Flexible, adaptable. Mark Miller: Yeah, my name's Mark. So people don't mess it up. Alicia Anderson: Spell it to me. Mark Miller: Spell it with the wrong last letter sometimes. So welcome to both of you. Mike this is your first time on the podcast, so great to have you here as well. Mike and I work together at TPGi and we're so excited to talk to Alicia. So can you give us a little bit of background? Just tell the world who you are and what you do and why you're on our podcast. Alicia Anderson: Yeah. So thank you for inviting me. I'm a motivational speaker, diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility, corporate inclusion coach and consultant. I have been in corporate America working in field for about 20 years doing sales. I'm just taking a leap from my job, actually from being the vice president of sales at a software company, going all in with my speaking and consulting business, because business has been good and I just had launched a TED talk. And my goal is to really motivate and evoke change for people with disabilities and have an active role in the advancement and acceptance of all of the power that disability can bring to the world. So that's a little bit about me. Mark Miller: So that's just great. I mean, what a great thing to dedicate your life to. Can you tell us a little bit about why you chose to do this? Alicia Anderson: Yeah, so I was born with my disability. I've lived my life from a wheelchair my entire life. I was also born an identical twin, so to an able bodied sister. So I've been chasing after the able bodied other half of me, literally my whole life. And we've been on a journey of inclusion from day one. And I was born back in the seventies when the disability rights movements were in full bore and the legislation was just being passed. And so I've been on this sort of experiment of inclusion. Way before it was something that we were actually really aiming for, hard in our society and through the progression of my life, whether it's been in school or in work or relationships or environmental or whatever aspect we're wanting to explore inclusion with, it's always been this thing that's been in my life and my sister and I equally have chased after each other and what I have found through my experiences that human to human connection and being open to have the tough conversations around this subject needs a little bit of work. And so I'm just trying to bring that to the forefront. I've always been employed. I've always worked. My dad as a little girl, instilled in me that hard work we find value in ourselves and it's especially important thing for anyone facing a lifetime of adversity. And so from being the first waitress in a wheelchair in high school to college, to vice president of sales at a software company and all the way through, from a work environment, it hasn't always been the most comfortable thing to climb the ladder of success. And through my experience I found a lot of ways and strategic ways to think about employment for people with disabilities and the collective work that it takes for a company to be willing to be nimble and have the conversations. And then on the flip side of it, for somebody in my position, somebody with a disability to be willing to go for it and not let their disability limit any of those aspirations that you have in life. And so over time, I've just started writing and speaking and I just had my first TEDx talk that was just launched this week. And so lots of exciting things. And I'm just a real human telling my story and hopefully giving some insight. So, that's really my goal with my business. Mark Miller: That's fantastic. One of the things I'd really like to explore because just in the few minutes that we've talked to you, it's clear that you have an incredibly positive attitude. You're a motivational speaker. So I'm sure that comes with the territory, not a big surprise there. And it seems like you're one of those people on this earth that really haven't figured out the meaning of the word no yet. So you just keep pushing forward. Alicia Anderson: That's very true. Mark Miller: And you've done this through this adversity that, if we can call it that, that's been around since birth. And I think we heard some hints, as you were telling your stories, it sound like you had a great relationship with your family, with your father and that the messaging he gave you I would imagine that really lent to a lot of your attitude. It sounds like your twin sister is just an amazing person to have in your corner and that the two of you fuel each other. And keep, you say chasing each other around, I almost see you guys running alongside each other and encouraging each other like marathon runners or something at the last few miles, to keep things going, but can you talk to us about... Because you totally could have a different attitude. Somebody who's born in a wheelchair and is making their way through a world of people who primarily are ambulatory, could choose a completely different attitude or could fall into a different attitude. Can you just dive deep into why you have such a great attitude? What do you attribute that to? I probably took a few answers from you, but please elaborate. Alicia Anderson: It's a culmination of a lot of things. Number one time. I've not always been so secure with my disability, depending on the time of my life, high school, my sister's going to prom. I'm doing my hair and having dinner with my parents. There's a social aspect depending on the time of life and your comfort level within your own being. And we all have that, whether we have a disability or not. So at this stage, in my life, I've found that my disability is this thing that empowers me and it leverage... I have to be proficient at things that other people might not have to be because of my disability. And so leveraging those things over time, you learn. But again, my parents, when I was born, they didn't know that they were having twins. They didn't know one was going to have a significant disability. And the goal was simple, which was for us to be able to explore the world together. And so they did specific things like put me in wheelchair tennis when I was four. I learned to be one with my chair and competitive and strong at a young age. And my dad and mom taught me you can, you should, and you will, in this life, you just have to try. And so it was instilled in me in such a young age that I didn't really see my disability until adolescent. So when my sister was jump roping, I would find a way, when I would go play wheelchair tennis or go to camp that was with kids with disabilities, she would be the only able body kid. It was never a question because we loved each other. And the human to human connection, taking the time to care about someone is where inclusion starts in my opinion, because once we care about a human, we put in the hard work, uncomfortable, ongoing work that it takes to figure out how to adapt, to make it whatever situation work for that specific person, individual moment in time. And it's ongoing. And so to get to where I am today, I've had to be open to human connection. I've had to sometimes do the best that I can. Smile, be as positive as I can, understand that people are watching me. And what am I going to do to make it count? They're learning. They're absorbing. A lot of people don't understand disability right off the bat. What can I do to help facilitate some understanding? So moving into the future, I'm widening doors. We talk about accessibility for your business. How do I widen doors for anyone that is going to follow me, for the little girls that want to go to camp or the person that's graduating from college and is so afraid to go on a job interview because they have to get through the disability conversation and then get all of these things. And what can I do to, I don't know, just pave my path forward help. I'm just trying to help. I'm trying to expand. And along the way, I've learned that this is a really cool life that I have been given. I haven't always been this positive. That would be a lie, but here today and now, my disability is the most important part of my being. It is absolutely the thing that is giving me this really cool life path of opportunity. Mark Miller: I think you brought up a really good point that it's not like you were born with this positive attitude that there's aspects in your life. I wouldn't say that any person with a disability probably has, I would say any person probably has. I consider myself to be a pretty positive motivated person, but man, can I point to some times in my life when I wasn't that way and when it was a challenge to be that way. So I think it's a human condition that we have these parts in our life that are more challenging. And I think high, school's probably, a one that we all, and I can only imagine, the difficulty that the social dynamics in high school are to have something like being in a wheelchair added to that. It's got to be even more challenging, but the fact that you have risen above that at this phase in your life, I think is amazing. I hope that that like you say, the human connection and the positive family interactions and all that, that you had gave you the ability to come out of the other side of a difficult time like that, and be the positive person that you are. My question for you is do you consider yourself a role model? Alicia Anderson: Ooh, that's a tough... I think I do. It's not deliberate necessarily, but yeah, I had role models when I was a little girl. Coaches, teachers, people that saw something in me before I could see it and suggested things. I had a professor suggested, I start speaking. I had a tennis coach that taught me to be strong and competitive. And so in my life now as an adult, it goes back to that. I know people are wanting to learn something from me and if it's a role model, great. If it's being some sort of a mentor or just giving a little bit of hope and giving people the gift of belief that anything is possible, like literally anything is possible if we strip away those ablelistic thoughts of it would be so much better if the disability wasn't there and start shifting those conversations and looking at people for who they are, seeing people for who they are. And so I think I am a role model. I get a lot of feedback and amazing messages from mothers of children with disabilities. And I talk a lot to corporations about inclusion at work because I'm so passionate about people with disabilities, having the job, the success, whatever that is in their life that they want. The heights that I have reached, it has not been easy, but it's so possible if we're just open to each other a little bit more. So that's really from a role model perspective, I hope I'm opening those doors for everyone. Mark Miller: I think that the phrase that just jumped out to me in all of that, that you just said is that is, I can't remember exactly how you said it, but was something to the effect of accepting people for who they are. So don't think of yourself as a person in a wheelchair that would be better off if you weren't in the wheelchair, but think of yourself as a person in a wheelchair and that's who you are. And I think that if we look at this world of diversity, equity, inclusion and the changes that people are trying to make all around, that's what it's about. It's about people wanting to be treated as who they are and who they... Not just who they are, but who they feel that they are and have other people accept that and not have to hide it. And you don't have the choice to hide it. It's out there for the world to see. But some of the other things that people might be struggling with, they do have the choice to hide it. And that makes, I think sometimes things worse. So I love the fact that your messaging to these corporations is let's look at these people for who they are Alicia Anderson: What I've learned in my career is the current company that I am leaving to just work at my own business, but they hired me specifically because they knew I had to be a good planner. Because of my disability, I have to plan to go to the airport. Is it going to be accessible? What's the building like? And they knew that that planning would translate to my work. And it's taking that thing that we think is a limitation, but understanding it creates something that we have, that we can leverage over somebody else, because we'd be proficient in something else. And it could be anything that happens to be. And so that story right there is what we need to start looking at. It's like, you need to look at the person as a whole and what is their disability? How does that make them more proficient in X? And how do we leverage that in an organization or in life or in society, or in love, or in our friendships or in whatever, because inclusion of disability, it's the one thing that touches every aspect of life. It's not just work, it's relationships and it's society and it's infrastructure. And it's like never ends. There's always an opportunity to better understand how to be more inclusive. And yeah, like my TED talk is disabling ableism. The modern pathway to inclusion ableism is so ingrained in our society, we don't even understand that we think about disability in the way of you would be so much better if. And so we need to start looking at the person as a whole, and really not taking away that piece, that might be the most valuable part of their entire person. Mark Miller: So instead of you would be so much better if it is, you are so good because? Alicia Anderson: Yes. Mark Miller: That's the change. Alicia Anderson: And you are... Yes. I mean, yes. And it is taken my entire career to get to the point where I'm not going for job interview being totally prepared. I'm telling my mom about my disability, how I can do this, get through that, then get to my expertise and then get to hiring. Now with all these amazing conversations that we're having everywhere, we're starting to look at these. There's a lot of work to do. Don't get me wrong, but we're starting to look at this in a different way. And it's like, oh my gosh, it's happening. So those are the experiences that I'm trying to share and like waitress in a wheelchair, I went into a restaurant at 18 and said, I want to do that. And it took a forward thinking company and my willingness to try and you adapt along the way. And then you have all these opportunities to show society what is possible for them to believe in something that they haven't prior. And that's my goal, believe in possible. Mark Miller: And by the way, if you need a book title, waitress in a wheelchair is a good one. Alicia Anderson: Okay. Thank you. That is my goal for this next year. So I like it. Mark Miller: Good book. There you go. I would at least consider that in the possible titles, waitress in a wheelchair. Alicia Anderson: I like it. Mark Miller: So setting all that aside, talk to me about a TED talk. Like, cool. I want to do a TED talk. That is just so cool. How did that come about? Alicia Anderson: So I've applied a couple times, twice actually. And my whole platform is called heart of inclusion. And that's the platform I've taken to organizations to talk about inclusion and all those things. And this specific TED talk opportunity came up at the college that I went to that gave me the first opportunity to speak ever on disability awareness week. Mark Miller: Got you. Alicia Anderson: 20 years ago, way before I was ever... It was probably a horrible speech. I don't even know. I woke up in the middle of the night, I'm like ableism. I need to talk about ableism and it being this modern pathway to inclusion, if we can disable it, flip that switch off in our mind that we don't look at disability in an ableist way, but we look at it in a positive way. It's the pathway in our modern day to inclusion. And so I applied and I got it. And then I nailed it. And I'm really proud of myself. It just was launched last week. I'm so proud of myself. And it was a moment for me. I mean, my mom passed away when I was seven. Mark Miller: Oh. Alicia Anderson: And she instilled a lot of these things in my life before she was gone. And so I literally just felt like it was my moment to be on that red dot in the dark stage, quiet with my mother and just... Her only goal was for me to be a strong, independent woman that can handle whatever comes at me. And so the fact that I had this opportunity and to share this message that I think is so important. And I was scared to start to talk about ableism because it's an [inaudible 00:20:25]. And it's part of the conversation of social inequities and all these things are going on. And I was scared, but it was powerful and I'm really excited about it. So listen. Mark Miller: That's incredible. Alicia Anderson: Yeah. Mark Miller: It really is. Can you do me a favor? I think that being in this industry, ableism is a term that we hear quite a bit, but I don't know that the average person really hears that term. Can you do the elevator speech to really define what you mean when you say ableism? Alicia Anderson: Ableism is a social prejudiced or discrimination based on the belief that typical abilities are superior. So examples of that is for me, you are so beautiful to be disabled. Are you going to heal one day? I'm not adapting that. I'm not hiring you. I'm not befriending you. I don't think it's possible for you. It's the lens that we see disability through today, a lot of the time, which is pity and exclusion and stereotyping and marginalization and all the things that come along. It's so ingrained. And what we think about disabilities as a society, we don't even know what ableism is. When I did this speech, I mean, few, the disability community knows what it is, but few people know what this is. And so having an opportunity to start shed light on this and so we can flip those thoughts off, disable them in our mind. So we start thinking about a path forward that is all inclusive of the human being, not wow, too bad you're disabled, you're so beautiful, or too bad you're disabled, you'll never have that job, or too bad you're disabled you'll never be able to walk. Who cares? That's my path. And so those are the conversations that we have to literally think about like, oh, do I [inaudible 00:22:33]? I have a broken leg. All of these conversations we get down in the dumps about, and it's like, no, you have a broken leg. Moment in time you're going to have an issue. You're going to learn something new that you're going to be able to use through the rest of your life. Mark Miller: Going to make you stronger than now. Alicia Anderson: And for me, I've grown up with this. I didn't know what it was for years. I had no idea what ableism was. And then when I knew what it was, I was like, I'm not talking about that. I'm not associating myself. I put in way too much work. Like, ew, I don't want to be associated with that word. And then I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like, you're doing that on a TED talk. This is your time to give that. And it was powerful, I think. You can listen to it [inaudible 00:23:18]. Mark Miller: We will. I think that what I like about what you're saying is that... You didn't quite say this, but I think it's a little bit implied. Is that there's something okay about saying hey, I'm ableist. What I mean by that is that Mike and I work in an industry where we're surrounded by people with disabilities and I would be considered able. Technically speaking, I have a cognitive disability because I have ADD and mild dyslexia. But it's hidden and I accommodate for it. And it's not anything remotely, like being in a wheelchair would be. And even with this perspective, as I listen to you talk, I think, well, jeez, I'm pretty progressive here. I work all these people with disabilities, we all treat each other. And I think that largely that's true, but hearing you talk about ableist, it makes me wonder where I still have existing biases or ways that I might think about something in an ableist way that I haven't even recognized, because it hasn't been talked about. And it hasn't been torn down in that way where I probably still have room for improvement in that way. And I think- Alicia Anderson: We all have it. Mark Miller: -to me that sounds like one, let's not be afraid of that conversation and that admission. And two, let's think about what this means, because maybe it'll help us work our way through that, because I can tell you what I just love about everything that you're saying is I do work with a bunch of people with disabilities. And I don't know how to say it, but it's just, I work with a bunch of people. At this point, I just work with a bunch of people and you're absolutely right. Sometimes the disability that they struggle with gives them an advantage in some area, just like I may have an advantage and be more apt in one area than another, just because of who I am. It's really just if you think of that continuum as longer then you would think of, if you're thinking of it, we all understand. People who are able might have an aptitude over here or over here, and we're going to hire this person, because they've got this strength, we're going to hire this person, because they've got this strength. If you take that line and you make it longer, now you have people with more apparent what we would call disabilities, like people who are in a wheelchair, but really they're just strengths and weaknesses- Alicia Anderson: [inaudible 00:26:05]. Mark Miller: -if you will, on this continuum and where you might consider jeez, Alicia can't walk, but what's that strength? Alicia Anderson: Yep. Mark Miller: Just like I'm a bad speller because of my dyslexia, but where's my strength. What did I do to compensate for that? And how did that strengthen some muscle that I needed to compensate for that? So it's just stretching out the continuum. I think that, that's brilliant and I think I have not heard anybody really break down ableism the way that you just did. And I'm sure your TED talk is great. But it really occurs to me that, that's just a fantastic discussion and something that we all can think about and benefit. Alicia Anderson: Yeah. And the one thing that I would say that, that is how you said one, we need to be okay with saying that we might have some ablelistic tendencies within each one of us. But the step before that is even understanding that it's a word, it's something that is present in all of our lives. And that is, I mean, when I was practicing the speech and giving it to some family members, my husband's on alter, his sister's like, oh my God, I'm an able, I grew up with my brother. We all have some little bit of, so there's a lot of learning and conscious understanding that we need to start realizing, before we can even get to the point of like, okay, I understand this is where I could do better. And so there's a lot of work to do with it, but it's an exciting time because we're starting to have these conversations and I'm super excited to be what I think to be at the forefront and one of the leaders in this stuff. And I'm proud that I get to share my experiences and hopefully shared some positivity. Though there is a lot of work to do, that this is collective ongoing work for all of us to tackle together. Mark Miller: That's fantastic. And I think that goes back to you being a role model. And I think that the fact that you're admitting to the struggles that you went through to get here makes you a better role model and bringing you to this point where you are trying to share that positivity. So indulge me here. You started tennis when you were younger. I saw that you do cycling. Tell me what it's like to be a person in a wheelchair doing these kind of sports activities that an ableist mentality might not realize in the beginning that you could even participate in. Alicia Anderson: It's empowering. I mean, I think one of the biggest challenges of anyone with a disability or any of us is staying fit and healthy and finding a way to make sure that you are keeping your body, whatever shape or form it is in a healthy way. And so that's number one for me. I've got a lot of medical things, internal stuff with this disability. I need to keep my body as fit as possible, but yeah, from the average person watching me, like, play tennis or I take my dog and I push my wheelchair. We go hill pushing. I like pushing up. I put weights on my arms and I find hills to go up, at steep ones and people stop like yo, wow, great. Those moments are for me really, but it's goes back to that, there's always a moment to help somebody see a path forward or a path that's possible. And so as a little girl, those things just taught me to be one with my chair. If you have any type of technology that you're using for your disability to help you leverage life a little bit more independently, as proficient as you could possibly be with whatever that tool is, you got to go for it. And I learned that through play, getting out and playing and having fun. And so it's been the single most important thing. My mom found Brad Parks who founded wheelchair tennis back in like 78 or something like that. There was no junior programs. I was like the first under his umbrella. And I had the first sports wheelchair ever built for juniors. And she just wanted me and my sister to be able to play together. And then she passed away a couple years later [crosstalk 00:30:52]. Mark Miller: You and your sister would play tennis together? Alicia Anderson: Oh yeah. Mark Miller: That's awesome. Alicia Anderson: So sports has been crucial. We used to travel on tennis tour and compete and all those things and I never made it to Paralympics. I did work for the Paralympics and the educational committee doing programming, but it was really important. So it's something that I definitely advocate for, for people with disabilities, if that's an interest of theirs to be musically- Mark Miller: Well, I think it's amazing to the ear. It's not like when you think of all wheelchair tennis, bunch of people in wheelchairs playing tennis, but sounds to me like you're competitive with people who play tennis, who aren't in a wheelchair as well. Alicia Anderson: And that's the thing is every sport, every opportunity there is a way to adapt so everybody can be involved. It's that equity conversation of like, we're not looking to be equal where everybody's given the same thing and we get to the end together, but we're looking at each individual person, what they need, how do we adapt to meet them where they need that so we all can get to the finish line together. I mean, you have to be open to adapt for inclusion and again, it's going to look and feel different for every single person. And so, I mean, all kinds of sports for people with disabilities, you can adapt and find ways to integrate and all of those things. So you just have to be open to create the creativity of it. Mark Miller: I did an interview a few months back with... I was trying to remember his name off the top of my head, but his nickname kind of what he goes by and what he goes by on social media is Wheelz. And it's another individual who's in a wheelchair, but the people around him were skateboarders. Alicia Anderson: That's Aaron. I know him. Mark Miller: Do you know Aaron? Alicia Anderson: Oh yeah. I know him. Mark Miller: And so listening to you, it makes me think back to Aaron, this guy that was like, my buddies are dropping in on a ramp at this skate park with their skateboards. I'm going to get up there with my wheelchair and do it. I mean, it took me whatever to drop in on a skateboard. I can't imagine being up there in a wheelchair, but of course, I'm sure he's comfortable in his wheelchair. So it was different for him, but it is a matter of just not accepting a limitation and just saying, everybody else is dropping in on this ramp. I'm going to go do it. Every body else is playing tennis, I'm going to go do it. And having whatever that process fight, whatever you want to say it is to figure out how to do it and get it done. Alicia Anderson: Totally. People with disability want all of the same things as everyone else. You just have to be adaptable, period. Mark Miller: And if you want to see some amazing stuff, go see Aaron. Look at Aaron on YouTube. It's absolutely nuts. It makes you want to go get in a wheelchair and try it, because just like when you see a skateboarder do something, you're like, oh, where's my skateboard, except for you're too afraid to do it, because it looks dangerous. But you're like, I wish I could do that. Mike: I don't know. I tried skateboarding. It wasn't for me. Mark Miller: Wasn't for you? Alicia Anderson: I don't think I would [inaudible 00:34:00]. Mike: No. Mark Miller: But something else is for you, Mike. You must bike or do something like that, right? Mike: Yeah. I used to play hockey. Mark Miller: Oh, that's a good one. Mike: Not good on wheels. Mark Miller: Not good on wheels. Alicia Anderson: My husband played wheelchair hockey for a long time. That was pretty wild too. Mark Miller: You played wheelchair hockey? Alicia Anderson: Not me, my husband. Mark Miller: Can you explain that? Alicia Anderson: Well there's two, he played roller wheelchair hockey, but there's also ice where you can sit on a sledge and you do this motion. I don't know what it's called and you're just back, I mean, you're doing the same motions, you're just sitting. Mark Miller: So you're on like- Alicia Anderson: It's like a sledge. Underneath it, there's too long ski. I'm not using the right words. I'm so not hockey. What do I call? Mark Miller: Like blades. Like in skates blades. Alicia Anderson: Blades. Thank you. And it's a Paralympics sport. You can Google it and they get- Mark Miller: Oh, that's cool. Alicia Anderson: -really rough. Mike: Yeah. I think I've seen it. Pretty cool. Mark Miller: So what I want to see is I want to see you check Mike into the boards. That's what I want to see. Alicia Anderson: I like it. Mark Miller: We'll get the two of you on the ice and you can, right into the boards. Mike, we've been dominating the conversation, do you have anything that's popping into your head or anything that you wanted? Mike: Yeah. So I had one thing. You had mentioned from early on, your dad instilled determination of hard work in you as a core ethic. And one thing was when did you start playing tennis? Alicia Anderson: 4. Mike: 4. Because I was going to say did they put you in tennis as an activity to keep you entertained? Or did you want to learn? Did you have that motivation to be good at tennis to take it to the next level? Because I think for most people it's like finding the determination going through failures and then coming through the other side to really enjoy that process. And so I was just curious about your process. Alicia Anderson: So I was definitely too young to choose it. They chose it because frankly they didn't know they're having a kid with a disability and they were just trying to find a way to have inclusive activities for us as a family. And my mom ran into it by accident. And so it just worked out. That said, I think people with disabilities need to realize that they can try and they should try those things. There's so many opportunities of sport and creative, artistic things and all kinds of things to try. And when I was young, I tried tennis, but as I grew up, I was wheelchair basket... I wanted to try it all. And once you find the thing that you are like, wow, that was really fun, I want to do that again. And it also ties it in social aspects and learning to handle that piece of your life, which was difficult as a young kid being confident socially too. So I encourage people with disabilities to, even though you might be uncomfortable with it, try because things like that open up worlds of possibility and you're hooked and then it leads to other things and not only becoming strong or proficient in something, but it drives you to try something else and then try something else after that and see what that doors opens for you from that standpoint. And so it's been a progression of doors, like trying things and then doors opening and then you, at some point have some self realization of like, oh, this is what I'm doing with my life. Mark Miller: Which is the same message. It's like just the same message. Alicia Anderson: Yeah. Mark Miller: As a parent of two kids without disabilities, that's my message. And I think Mike, you hit the nail on the head. It's about all that. And it's about understanding that failure's part of that process. And I would imagine that if you have a disability and you try to do something and there's an immediate failure, that society in a way, backs up, hey, you failed because you have a disability and that's a reason not to continue to try. And as human beings, we have that tendency anyways. That's why as a parent we're telling our kids, no, no, no, you're going to mess up. You got to keep pushing. But to deliver that message to people with disabilities specifically and say, yeah, you're going to go. I'm sure Aaron didn't drop in on that ramp the first time and have a great... I'm sure he dumped on his head. That's why he wears a helmet. Alicia Anderson: Totally. Mark Miller: But he didn't take that. He learned from that failure and moved on to Mike's point. And what's really amazing about everything you're saying, I think is that there's no difference. Talk about inclusion and equivalency and stuff like that. There's really no difference in your message that there isn't an anybody else's message. It's just understanding, and realizing that that message is meant for everyone regardless of ability. Alicia Anderson: And exactly. And from a parental standpoint, it might not be as easy as a parent, if you're a parent to able bodied children to say you, you failed, keep trying, keep trying, keep trying. When you have a child with a disability, there could be a tendency to want to cuddle a little bit or protect a little bit more. And the biggest gift that my parents did... My mom, when she passed away, she was like, make sure she's independent. And my dad took that really serious. And so when my grandma wanted to pick me up and help me, he would say, don't touch her, let her figure it out. He didn't adapt everything in the house because he knew that back then ADA it wasn't even around. And he knew that the world is not always going to be perfect. So accessibility and adaptions are key to inclusion of people with disabilities. But what is also key to inclusion is for people with disabilities to also be nimble and enough to find a path forward, because it's not going to always be perfect and you don't want to be left behind. You want to live the best life that you can. And so pushing forward, like fail, try again. And same thing, like you're saying, it's the same for everybody, but from a disability standpoint, the ableist in us go, oh gosh, ugh. Instead of [crosstalk 00:40:46] no, they all go again, go again. Mark Miller: And I think your dad deserves some sort of award here because I can tell you as a parent, that when you become a parent, you have no idea what you're doing, period. And if you become a parent of a child with a disability, you even have less idea of what you're doing. Like, in my mind, you almost can't blame the parent for the things that they do and try and the way that they feel because it's completely unexpected. And they're all of a sudden... It's almost like a disability for them too, where they're challenged with a child that has a disability and they have to, all of a sudden... Your dad, wasn't part of a wheelchair group ahead of time. Alicia Anderson: He was not. Mark Miller: All this stuff had to be figured out. I had a friend who was deaf and just the stories that she would tell about her parents who did all these wonderful things, put her in speech therapy. She could read lips like nobody's business. She could speak very well. But unknowingly, she didn't fit in the hearing community because she was deaf all the way, but because she didn't grow up learning sign language and her parents' decision at that time was she would be better off if we taught her these things. She didn't fit in the deaf community either. But how in the world are her parents supposed to know that? You know what I mean? Alicia Anderson: Yeah. Mark Miller: So my point being is that your dad under multiple challenges, I think given that your mom passed away when you were seven and he was left from that point on, on his own to figure these things out, probably thankful that you had a sister to work through this stuff. I mean that guy, let's get him a medal. It's an [crosstalk 00:42:40] unbelievable job. And just talking to you and I know that part of the unbelievable human being that we're talking to here now, part of that is because of him. Alicia Anderson: Huge. And a lot of it was probably his own self preservation or I don't know if that's the right word. But I think it made him feel better to push me hard so he would see me... Even through surgeries was like, just do it. It wasn't like- Mark Miller: He wasn't coddling? Alicia Anderson: No. He was like- Mark Miller: He wasn't coddling. Alicia Anderson: -always don't cry. I'm like, okay. Mark Miller: We're all here. Let's do this. Alicia Anderson: I think that's how he protected himself from the stuff that he had to deal with me medically, was for my mom. He went through a lot with me. And so I think through that, I learned to be really strong and to try all the time because that's what he instilled in me, always. Mark Miller: Well, we have to wrap things up here- Alicia Anderson: Okay. Mark Miller: -because we're getting towards the end of time. I feel like we could talk forever. But one of the things you have to do is you have to go high five, your dad, and just tell him- Alicia Anderson: I will. Mark Miller: -from one dad to another, is that, that was amazing. You're amazing. I think that the messaging that you're putting out there is incredible for people with disabilities. Incredible for everyone. I can see why you're a motivational speaker. Please keep doing that. I want to know about that first book that comes out. I want to read that. I'm curious to what you talk about and please make sure that Mike has all the information on your TED talk and all that stuff. I'm positive that people who listen to this are going to want to then go over to your TED talk. So let's make sure that we have that. And anything else that you want to share? Alicia Anderson: No. I mean just if there's any corporations that are looking for motivational speakers, aliciaanderson.com. I'm ready to go. Mark Miller: We'll put that in the show note. Just put everything that you want us to include with this so that people can explore further. Alicia Anderson: I just [crosstalk 00:44:52] want to thank you for the work you're doing, it's really awesome. I feel really great to be here today, specifically among my peers and minded people. And all this work that we're doing together is going to pay off. So I appreciate everything that y'all are doing on your end as well. Mark Miller: Thank you. We appreciate it too. Mike, thank you. This is Mark Miller thanking, Alicia and Mike and reminding you all to keep it accessible. Mike: Thank you. Thanks Alicia. It was real nice meeting- Alicia Anderson: [inaudible 00:45:24]. Mike: -you. Speaker 1: This podcast has been brought to you by TPGi, the experts in digital accessibility. Stay tune for more real people, real stories, podcasts coming soon.